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LIBRARY 




ONTARIO 



DEPARTMENT OF MINES 



IIJ'UWilUfflM'IW 






(^jjts'r 



PROCEEDINGS 

OF THE 

THIRD SESSION 

OF THE 

TWENTY-THIRD LEGISLATURE 

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO 



Hon- (Rev.) M. C. Danes, Speaker 



Volume XXXVII 

WED1IESDAY,M>^CH SStli, 1951 



March 28th., 1951 



A-2 

And the House having met. 

Prayers, 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions, 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by Committees. 

MR. R, ROBSON {Hastings East): Mr. Speaker, I beg 
leave to present the second Report of the Standing Committee 
on Agriculture and Colonization, and move its adoption, 

THE CLERK ASSISTANT: Mr, Rob son, from the Standing 
Committee on Agriculture and Colonization, begs leave to 
present -tiio following aa its second report. 

Your Committee begs to report the following 
Bill as amended. 

Bill number 114, "An Act to amend the Oleo- 
margarine Act". 

All of v/hich is respectfully submitted. 

(signed) R. Robson, 

"Chairman," 



Page A-3 follows). 






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Motion agreed to, 

MR. SPSAK2R: Motions. _ 

Introduction, of Bills, 

RURAL TELEPH0N3 SYSTEIVES 

Hon. G.H. CHAILIES (Minister without Portfolio): 
Mr, Speaker, moved bymyself , seconded by Mr. Dunbar, that 
leave be given to introduce a Bill intituled, "An Act 
respecting The Rural Telephone Systems", and that same be 
now read a first time. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 

MR. FARQ,miAR OLIVER (Grey South): V/ill the hon. 
Minister (Mr, Challies) please explain, 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister) : Mr. Speaker. 
I will try to explain to the House this Bill, and the policy 
which is behind it. 

In the Throne Speech it was indicated that rural 
telephones in Ontario, speaking very generally, have not 
had the opportunity of keeping in touch v;ith the wide 
technical developments in the communications fields. '.7ithin 
the province there are three tele one systems operated either 
by the government or its agencies, — The Northern Ontario 
system operated by the Ontario Northland Railway, the private 
systems operated by the Department of Lands and Forests, and 
the Hydro Electric Power Commission of Ontario. In addition 
to this, through the operations of the Telephone Act and the 
Municipal Board, we have a section under Mr. J, A. McDonald 
which for years has supervised with the Municipal Board a great 
variety of company matters, 

V/e therefore have in government services, or agencies, 



March 28th, 1951 



A-4 

a number of top-flight officials who have a great knowledge 
of the problems with which this Bill deals. 

Some three years ago an inquiry was instituted by 
the Department of Municipal Affairs and a preliminary survey 
was made of the situation which is complicated indeed. We 
have in the province telephone companies, some municipally 
owned, some privately owned, some co-operatives, varying 
from 10 subscribers in size to 5,000 subscribers in size. 
The Board has record of 518 telephone companies operating 
in Ontario with 175,307 telephones and 33,025 miles of pole 
line carrying 255,493 miles of wire and representing an 
Investment of |19 million. It is interesting to note that 
Ontario has almost half of all the telephones in Canada 
counting the Bell Telephone Company and has 26,5 'phones 
for every 100 of population. In other words, more than one 
♦phone for every 4 of our people. Our concern v^ith this 
Bill, of course, is with 175,000 telephones in the rural 
districts. 

These 518 companies vary from efficient, well-operated 
units to those which are very poorly run and give a positive 
minimum of service. In a large number of these companies the 
standards of service arefer below the pro: -ress which has been 
made in other lines. The standard of rural life has changed 
very greatly in the last few years. Y/e now have 300,000 
rural customers enjoying the benefits of electrical power. 
This represents about a million of our rural population. 
School facilities are such that equality of opportunity for 
rural people in education is fast becoming a fact. Rural 
roads are now being snowploughed, so that our rural people 
can live on their farms with the same conveniences as people 



A-5 

in urban areas. One place that v e are behind is in rural 
telephone communications. 

May I say to the hon members of the House that 
in a county like Haliburton, within the last few years 
there was not such a thing as a secondary school. Now, 
in that county due to the betterment and snowploughing of 
roads, they have formed a central system, where there will 
be one secondary school, which will provide for these 
people an equality of opportunity, which they never had 
before. 

The government's investigation of this problem has 
indicated the desirability of working out this problem in 
partnership with the companies I have mentioned. There is 
no desire on the part of the government to employ strong-arm 
methods and, in fact, it is not desired in any way to give 
that impression. Rather, the government would prefer to 
sit in with these 518 rural companies, large and small, 
and get their advice, suggestions and full-cooperation in 
any moves that are made. 

It is desirable that there should be a period of 
investigation, after which it can be decided what course 
to take. It is quite probable that a Telephone Commission, 
somewhat after the lines of the Hydro-Electric Power Com- 
mission, should be formed after the fullest of investigation 
and all are satisfied that this is the right course. In 
the meantime, in view of the fact that the Hydro-Electric 
Power Commission has some 35,000 miles of rural power lines 
which can be used for communication purposes, and also the 
fact that the Commission is operating a sizable telephone 
operation of its own, that the Commission should be the co- 
ordinating agency. The government therefore is placing in 



March 28th, 1951 

A-6 

the hands of the Commission the sum of $100, 000 which 
will be placed in an account known as "The Ontario Telephone 
Account". The Ontario Government will pay the entire bill. 
There will be no charges to be paid by the users of Hydro, 
The Commission is being used at the present time as the 
readiest method of effecting the co-ordination required to 
tackle this problem. 

The section to be formed in the Commission, and 
which would be completely paid for by public funds, will 
be such as to include not only the Commission's experience 
and facilities but those of the Department of Lands and 
Forests, the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission, the 

Municipal Board and any other department or branch of Govemment 
These will be formed into a unit to collaborate and inquire 
into ways and means to best promote better telephone fa- 
cilities in Ontario, to disseminate ir formation and advice 
which may be helpful to the 518 operating companies, and 
to co-operate with and assist them by means of making avail- 
able engineers, technicians and workmen, and also purchase 
for them materials and equipment at once, 

Mr, Speaker, The Hydro Electric Power Commission, 
with its 35,000 miles of line, offer a very interesting 
field of investigation. It may be that science will 
devise ways and means by which those lines can be used 
not only for the transmission of electrical energy, but 
for the transmission a sound waves, such as we have in 
telephones. In other words, one wire may not only 
transmit the electrical energy, but on a different 
frequency, it may transmit a number of different waves 
which would serve other individuals or communities. 



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That is a very interesting experiment, and we 
hope not only to make available the 35,000 miles of 
hydro-electric lines — rural lines — but to co- 
ordinate into the company's systems in the province on 
some reasonable basis, the transmission of sound waves 
over the wires which are there, and which are necessary 
in the telephone business. 

iUaong the first things to be done by the Committee 
to be formed by the Commission will be to invite the Tele- 
phone Companies to sit in with them and to determine the best 
and most practical means of proceeding. 

Again, Mr. Speaker, we want to be helpful, we want 
co-operation; we want the telephone companies, many of 
which — I should say from one-third to one-half are co-opera- 
tive -- to feel that they have a partner sitting beside them, 
who will be helpful, v;ho will not shove them around or 
expropriate their lines, or do things which they might feel 
were against the interests of those companies, many of which 
have operated for a great many years# 

At this time it has not been felt advisable to give 
the Commission powers to ovm or to operate or acquire com- 
panies or to effect amalgamations. It has been felt better 
that the Commission's work should be exploratory and advisory 
at the present time, and that if we are to embark upon more 
extended operations, as I have outlined, then a separate 
Commission should be formed v;ith explicit powers but this 
only after the fullest of consultations with the existing 
telephone companies. In other words, the underlying principle 
of this measure is first of all to obtain the fullest of 



nx.^: 



March. 28thjl951 



A-8 

co-operation and understanding so that whatever is done will 
be after ftill consultation and the most thorough investiga- 
tion and study of all concerned. 

Again, the principle of this Bill is that it is in 
the public interest that the telephone systems serving the 
people of rural Ontario should be improved, extended and co- 
ordinated and underlying this Bill is the intention to make 
our rural telephone services in Ontario the very best that 
can be devised, and to this end we are asking the co-operation 
of all people. 

Mr, Speaker, that is the purpose of this Bill, and 
a general outline of the intentions of the Bill. 

I may refer the hon. members of the House to the 
Report of the Telephone section of the Municipal Board, 
which operates under Mr, J.A, McDonald, In that you will 
find a wealth of information concerning the nature and extent 
of this problem, together with additional information secured 
from investigations which have been made over the last two 
or tJira© years into this very complicated problem. 

One of the alarming features of this situation, Mr, 
Speaker, is that we have some 518 large and small t elephone 
companies in Ontario, A number of those telephone companies 
are at present in difficulties. In many cases, they are 
absorbed by a larger company, perhaps by The Bell Telephone 
Company, and in those cases the cream of the business is 
t-ken, and the skimmed milk is left, and many people are 
left without service, 

ThaD J.O .u, lii^Hij urtp^t.-i.pf aotory state of affairs, 
.--t the present time, and it is quite understandable that 
to enter into this picture, with 518 companies, and. possibly 



A-9 



518 different points of view, depending on the localities, 
to use any compulsion in the matter of the amalgamation 
of these companies, or anything of that sort, Including 
the expropriation of lines or equipment or assets, might 
create a feeling of disquiet on the part of c. company, 
which perhaps would think it was a move to radically inter- 
fere with their business, and not be helpful, but out to 
"gobble up" their bhsiness. 

That is not the intention at all. This Act is 
being devised and designed as a co-operative approach, 
and the intention of the government is to be helpful 
and useful in the big problem, and in the solution of it , 
we are asking their full co-operation and advice, 

MR. E.3. JOLLIFFl (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 
whether the "Ontario Telephone Account" will be known as 
the "O.T.A."? 

MR. FROST: V/ell, due to the fact that the "O.T.a." 
has so far gone into the distant past, it might be possible 
to use that without any misunderstanding. In the days of 
the hon. member for Brant (Mr, Nixon), the "O.T.A." was 
a name which was not particularly used in this province, 
unless cne wanted to get into trouble . 

MR. SPEAECER: Introduction of Bills. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FR03T (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
we have a number of routine Bills which arose out of the 
Budget, and which usually are a prelude to the end of the 
Session. 

Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by Mr, Doucett, 



March 28th, 1951 

A-10 

that leave be given to Introduce a Bill intituled, 
"An Act to Amend The Land Transfer Act", and that same 
be now read a first time. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 

MR. FROST: Mr, Speaker, this Bill is complementary 
to the Bill introduced a few days ago by the hon. Attorney 
General (Mr, Porter), relative to the higher standard 
of minimum fees for Registrars of Deeds. 

Mr, Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by Mr, Doucett, 
that leave be given to introduce a Bill intituled, "An 
Act to amend The Succession Duty Act", and that same be 
now read a first time. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 

MR. FROST: I may say, Mr, Speaker, that this is not 
a Bill to abolish succession duties, but to clarify certain 
points. Perhaps the most important feature is to clarify 
the section relating to gifts, and make the interpretations 
under that section parallel with the Federal Act. You will 
recall that some years ago the Act provided that gifts 
made back as far as 30 years were taxable. That was in the 
days of a different brand of government in this province — 

MR. HARRY BIXON (Brant): And as I remember on Mr. 
McAuley's suggestion. 

MR, FROST: It was not in the day of "modern Liberal 
Democracy" anyway. Some years ago we changed it to five 
years, and it remains at that fig\ire, oxcept for certain 
rules which will bring it in line with the Federal Act. 

THE PROVINCIAL LOAIIS ACT 

Hon. L3SLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 



A- 11 

I beg to move, seconded by Mr, Doucett, that leave be 
given to introduce a Bill intituled, "An Act to amend 
TJae Provincial Loans Act", and that same be now read a 
first time. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 
MR. FROST: Mr. Speaker, this Bill has some amendments 
to modernize the provincial Loans Act, Among them are amend- 
ments to bring our Act in line with the requirements of the 
Security Exchange Commission in the United States. As the 
hon. members giay know, we have on provincial account about 
one-quarter of a billion dollars of loans, in the New York 
market. It is necessary, of course, to refund these loans 
from time to time, and the provisions in the Act in connection 
with sinking fund and other requirements are not as specific 
as they should be, and our Solicitors have adgised us there 
should be some amendments to the Act which are to a certain 
extent of a routine nature, to clarify certain provisions 
and sections in the Act, and also to repeal certain sections 
which have become inoperative by the passage of time. 

THE HOSPITAE' TAX ACT 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr, Speaker, 
I beg to move, seconded by Mr. Doucett, that leave be 
given to introduce a Bill intituled, "An Act to amend The 
Hospitals Tax Act ", and that same be now read the first 
time. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 
MR, FROST: This Bm was indicated in the Budget, 
It provides t at entertainment in lounges and dining lounges, 
which is taxable, shall include e7';rythlng but what you might 
term "background music", I do not know whether the hon. 



March 88th, 1951 



A-12 



members are familiar with the meaning of "background music". 
It means anything beyond the music by an orchestra, or 
piano or instrument, and shall be taxable. 

In addition to that, it reduces the tax from 15?^ 
to ir>::'^, and sets out a new schedule of taxes which will 
apply on that rate. 

RAISING MONEY ON THE CREDIT 
OF CONSOLIDATED REVENUE 
FUND 
Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I beg to move, seconded by Mr. Doucett, that leave be given 
to introduce a Bill intituled, "An Act to authorize the 
Raising of Money on the Credit of the Consolidated Revenue 
Fund", and that same be nov; read a first time. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 

THE IiIGHl7AY TRAFFIC ACT 
Hon. G.H, DOUCETT (Minister of Highways): Mr. Speaker, 
moved by myself, seconded by Mr. Frost, that leave be given 
to introduce a Bill intituled, "An Act to amend The Highway 
Traffic Act", and that same be now read a first time. 
Motion agreed to;, first reading of the Bill, 
MR. DOUCETT: Mr. Speaker, I may say there are these 
few minor changes in this Bill. One of them has to do 
vi/ith the suspension arms for signal light controls at street 
intersections. Another is an electrical mechanical signaling 
device to be used in lieu of hand signals in automobiles. 
I think, after next year, all manufacturers manufacturing 
cars will have those devices on their cars, in line with 
the change of manufacture of motor vehicles. 



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March 28th, 1951 

A-13 

Another is one which requires solicitors and clients' 
fees to be taxed in oases of unsatisfied judgments, and it 
defines the terms. 

Hon. Gj A. VffiLSH (Provincial Secretary): Mr, Speaker, 
I beg to present to the House the following: 

(1) Report of the Minister of Public V/orks 
of Ontario for the 12 months ended 
31st of March, 1950. 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

MR, S.J. HUNT (Renfrew North): Mr. Speaker, on a 
question of privilege, before the Orders of the Day, I 
would like to bring this matter to the attention of the 
House. This may be a question of mistaken identity, but 
I see on my desk a notice that the Select Committee on 
Government Commissi ns will meet tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. 
However, it is addressed to "Mr. Dennison". The hon. member 
for St. David (Mr. Dennison) might be deeply disappointed, 
if he did not receive this notice, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Before we leave this matter of intro- 
duction of Bills, Mr, Speaker; on yesterday's Order Paper 
there was still standing a notice of motion in the name of 
the hon. Attorney General (Mr. Porter), "An Act to amend 
the deserted wives and children's maintenance Act". 
It has disappeared from today's Order Paper. I think the 
original notice was given on February 26th, 

It seems to me we might have from the hon. Attorney 
General (Mr, Porter) an explanation, that is to say, whether 
he has abandoned his intention of introducing this particular 
Bill, 

MR. PORTER: No, I do not know why it disappeared, 

MR. W.J. GRUMMETT (Cochrane South): There was another 



March 28th, 1951 



A-14 

Act, Mr, Speaker • 

MR. PORTER: I think the other Act was to be put 
in the Statute Law Amendment Act. It w .is a very minor 
amendment • 

MR. JOLLIFFE: You are not abandoning it? 

MR. PCeTER: Oh no, 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Third readings. 
Order No.l. 

THE PUBLIC UTILITIES ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: First Order, third reading of 
Bill No, 122, " An Act to amend The Public Utilities Act", 
Mr, Dunbar. 

Hon, DAi .A PORTER (Attorney General): Mr, Speaker, 
in the absence of Mr, Dunbar, I move third reading of 
Bill No. 122. 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 

Mix, SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now pass 
and be intituled as in the motion. 

Hon, LESLIE M, FROST (Prime Minister): Order No, 2, 

THE LOCAL IMFVOVEMENT ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Second Order, third reading 
of Bill No, 123, " An Act to amend The Local Improvement Act", 
Mr, Dunbar. 

Hon, DANA PORTER (Attorney General) : Mr, Speaker, 
in the' a sence of Mr, Dunbar, I move third reading of Bill 
No, 123. 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 



• ". .11; ; , ■ 



A-15 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 
pass and be intituled as in the motion. 

Hon, LESLIE M« FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 3. 

THE DEPARTMENT OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Third Order, third reading of 
Bill No, 124, "An Act to amend The Department of Municipal 
Affairs Act'*, Mr, Dunbar. 

Hon. DANA PORTER (Attorney General) J Mr, Speaker, 
in the absence of Mr* Dunbar, I beg to move third reading 
of Bill No. 124. 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill, 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do novrf - ass 
and be intituled as in the motion, 

Hon. LiLSLE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 4. 

THE VITAL STATISTICS ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fourth Order, third reading of 
Bill No. 125, "An Act to amend the Vital Statistics Act", 
Mr. Dunbar. 

Hon. J.H, DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal Affairs): 
Mr, Speaker, I move third reading of Bill No. 125, "An 
Act to amend The Vital Statistics Act". 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 

MR, SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do nov^ pass 
and be intituled as in the motion, 

Hon. LESLIE M, FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 5. 

THE ASSESSMENT ACT 
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fifth Order, third reading of 



March 28tji,1951 



A-16 

Bill No, 126, " An Act to amend The Assessment Act", 
Mr. Diinbar. 

Hon. GEORGS H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal Affairs): 
Mr. Speaker, I beg to move third reading of Bill No. 126, 
"An Act to amend The Assessment Act". 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do nov; pass 
and be intituled as in the motion. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 6. 

THE MUNICIPAL ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixth Order, third reading 
of Bill No. 127, " An Act to amend The Municipal Act", Mr. 
Dunbar. 

Hon. G.H. DUNBiiR (Minister of Municipal Affairs): 
Mr. Speaker, I beg to move third reading of Bill No. 127, 
"An Act to amend The Municipal Act". 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do nov; pass 
and be intituled as in the motion. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 7, 

THE Liq^UOR LICENCE ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Seventh Order, third reading 
of Bill No. 99, "An Act to amend The Liquor Licence Act", 
Mr. Welsh. 

Hon. G.A. WELSH (Provincial Secretary) : Mr. Speaker, 
I beg to move third reading of Bill No. 99, "An Act to 
amend The Liquor Licence Act". 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 



A-17 

MR, SP3AKER: Resolved that the Bill do nov; pass 
and be intituled as in the motion. 

Hoh. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No* 8. 

FAIR RaiUNSRATION TO FEMALE EMPLOYEES 

CLERK OF TH:: HOUSE: Eighth Order, third reading of 
Bill No, 120, "An Act to ensure Fair Remuneration to Female 
Employees", Mr, Daley, 

Hon. CHARLES DALEY (Minister of Labor): Mr. Speaker, 
I beg to move third reading of Bill No. 120, 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill, 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now pass 
and be intituled as in the motion, 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 9, 

AGREEMEl^ BETWEEN CANADA AI\[D ONTARIO 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Ninth Order, third reading of 
Bill No. 132, "An Act to approve an Agreement between 
Canada and Ontario respecting the Development of the Niagara 
River", Mr. Challies, 

Hon, G.H. CHALLIES (Minister without Portfolio): 
Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to move third reading of Bill 
No, 132. 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now pass 
and be intituled as in the motion, 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr, Speaker, 
I move you do now leave the Chair, and the House resolves 
itself into the Committee of the V/hole. 

Motion agreed to. 



March 28th, 1951 



A-18 

THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE (Mr. PATRICK in the Chair) 
Hon. LESLIE H. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 
22. 

FAIR MIPLOYMENT PRACTICES 

CLERK OF THE HOQSE: Twenty-second Order, Hou o 'u 
Committee on Bill No. 121, "An Act to promote Fair Employment 
Practices in Ontario", Mr. Frost. 

Section 1 agreed to. 

On Section 2: 

MR. H. V/ALTERS (Bracondale ) : Mr. Chairman, I move that 
Bill No. 121 be amended by re-numbering section 2 as sub- 
section 1 of section S, and adding thereto the following 
subsection: 

"This Act applies to the Crown in right 
of the Province of Ontario and any 
emanation thereof". 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Chairman, 
the reasons why this amendment would be unacceptable are 
the seme as those given yesterday on a similar motion by 
the hon. member for Riverdale (Mr. Wismer) concerning fair 
wages for female employees, or, should I say "equal pay 
for v;omen". 

As I explained yesterday, the Civil servants have 
their own methods of discussing their problems v^ith the 
government, through their Joint Advisory Council in the various 
departments, and the general Council which sits with the 
Cicil Service Commissioner. v^ 

The hon. member (Mr. Walters) may say that the scheme 
under this Act which belongs to all Ontario does not fit into 
an organization which does not come under the Labor Relations 



March 28th, 1951 



A-.19 

Act, That is the case with the Civil Service, It is also 
the case with the Federal Civil Service, We have our own 
methods of dealing with that. 

In connection with the Bill covering equal pay 
for women it has not been necessary to advise the Civil 
Service Commission to see that this Act is put into effect, 
because it is already in effect, in the service. There has 
never been any question raised concerning race, color or 
creed, and I can assure the hon, member (Mr, V/alters) that 
the principles of this Bill will be the principles of 
the arrangements between the Civil Service and the govern- 
ment, I think my hon, friend (Mr, \valters) will see that 
you cannot make this Act applicable to the Civil Service, 
or to those branches of the Service which do not come under 
the Labor Relations Act. On the other hand, you need not 
worry but what the principles of this Act will be fully 
carried out, 

L/IR, EAL'ION PARK (Dovercourt) : Mr. Chairman, there 
are a number of government Commissions which are employers 
in the ordinary sense of the word, engaged in collective 
bargaining with their employees, and so on, and the hon. 
Minister of Labor (Mr, Daley) was boasting the other day 
about the Hydro Commission collectively bargaining v^ith 
its employees. 

I just want to say, Mr. Chairman, that these employers, 
as emanations of the Crovm ought to be covered, even if there 
is a special condition applicable to the Civil Service, and 
which special condition should not continue much longer. 
Surely the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) will realize 
that Commissions, like the Liquor Commission, the Ontario 



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A-20 

Northland Railroad, and the Hydro Commission — to mention 
only three — should be bound by the laws of the province 
of Ontario, the same as any other employer. I think if 
they are brought under the law, they will have respect for 
and obey the laws, which cannot be possible if the govern- 
ment is to hold them up as examples for other kinds of em- 
ployers. 

MR. FROST: The point is purely an academic one. There 
is no issue at stake. To import into the Act a new principle 
as regards the relations of the Crown and its employee^, 
I do not think would be desirable* If that becomes an issue, 
then it will be met, with the full understanding of the 
whole problem, and no doubt it will be met in a different 
way than by doing something here which might be done in a 
left-handed way, and which I think has been decided by most 
governments, on a different basis, 

I can assure my.- hon. friend (Mr, Park) that aside 
from the academic issue, there is no issue at point at all, 
for the reason that these principles always have been in 
force in the relationship between the government and its em- 
ployees. 

I did not think it was necessary to write a letter 
to the Commission, but I will certainly do so, to make per- 
fectly sure that there is not anything in our relationship 
which would run contrary to the principles of the Bill, 

MR. SALSBERG: \.^ould the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 
also agree that such a letter reach all of the government- 
owned companies, Boards and Commissions? 

MR. FilOST: Oh yes. 

MR. "U'iiLTiiES: Mr. Chairman, I listened with attention 



March 28th, 1951 



A-.21 



to the hon. Premier (Mr. Frost), and when this Bill 
was introduced, I spoke on it, and I tried to convey to 
the hon. Premier (Mr. Frost) the results of the efforts 
which have been made in the United States with respect 
to this legislation. One of the things is, as I have 
stated before, the additional impact on the lives of the 
public is sometimes pretty heavy. I think the hon. Premier 
(Mr, Frost) Vi/ill admit there is a peculiar psychology to 
this Legialation, when a government makes no provision to 
come under its own legislation. I do not know how other 
people's mind work, but in my own opinion, I would think 
it rather peculiar that the government should pass this 
legislation, and yet have no provision in the Bill for 
itself coming under it, 4f 'only to serve as an example to 
other employers. 

MR. SALSBERG: May I ask a question of the hon. 
Premier (Mr, Frost) a propos of thist I agree with the 
principle of this amendment, but would it be correct to 
assume if there is no section in the Act excluding govern- 
ment employees, or employees of government -owned companies, ' 
it may be taken for granted that it will apply to all 
government services? 

MR. FROST: No, I do not think so. The difficulty 
v;ith the Act is this, and you can see where it runs 
counter to the V/hiteley Council arrangement. This Act pro- 
vides for a conciliator and director intervening. I thin^ the 
principle of the Act should be in force now, but due to the 

faic-t that there is a director appointed h-y the govern- 
ment, I do not think it would be at all desirable, that the 
machinery contained in this Act should be enforced, because, 
as I say, the arrangement between the Civil Service and 



A-22 

the governments generally, in Canada — certainly in 
Ontario and in the Federal government — are conducted 
in a different way. 

In our own Civil Service, as I have explained before, 
I think perhaps we have the most advanced V/hiteley system — 
if I may use that term — in Canada. I do not want to 
make comparisons, because it is hardly fair, but I am 
satisfied our arrangement with our 12,000 or 13,000 employ- 
•e^s is much in advance of that which is used even by the 
Federal Government in its relationships. The Counsel 
meets frequently — I perhaps should not say "continuously"- 
but it can almost be said that for every reasonably 
practical purpose, they are in constant consultation. 
It is quite obvious, if someone is discriminated against 
in the service, because of race, color or creed, the 
matter would go to the Council and be dealt with in that 
way, I am sure that situation does not arise. I do not 
say this for publication, but the Commission in the past 
has gone out of its way to give opportunities to people 
who might come under the classification of "race, o ^lor 
or creed". Perhaps some of the hon. members have seen 
examples of that, which I think clearly indicates that 
long before the Act was ever introduced, such a thing 
did not exist in our Service, and we have no intention of 
ever allowing it to exist. 

The amendment negatived. 

Section 2 agreed to. 

On Section 3: 

Hon. WILLIA^I GRIESINGER (Minister of Planning and 
Development): In connection vdth Section 3, I cannot let 



A-23 



the opportunity pass without saying a few words, Windsor 
has received a great deal of unnaoGssary criticism in 
the past, much of which was untrue. But let me say to 
the hon. members of this House that discrimination cannot 
be charged to V/indsor, May I be permitted to mention the 
names of certain people who are highly respected in our 
community, amongst is Dr. H.T. Taylor, a member of our 
Board of Education, and also its Chairman on a niomber 
of occasions; Doctor Roy Perry, an Alderman who was 
elected with tho highest majority ever attained in his 
ward, and our own "Jimmy" Watson, the City Solicitor of 
the City of V/indsor, All these gentlemen are negroes, 
and they have been chosen for their ability qnd integrity, 
and as far as this Bill is concerned, let me say that 
"actions spealc louder than words". 

SOME hon, MEMBERS: Hear, hear, 

MR. PaRK: The hon. Minister (Mr, Friesinger) 
might have gone farther and given credit to the Windsor City 
Council for being one of the first in Ontario to pass 
an anti-discriminatory law, which later spread to O'^shawa, 
and even reached the City of Toronto, 

Sections 3 to 5 inclusive agreed to. 

On Section 6 : 

MR. SAL3BERG: I have an amendment, which I hope 
the Government will agree to, I would cather not put 
it to a vote, if they will not agree, but I think they 
should. 

The intended amendment is as follows: 

"That Section 6 of Bill 121 be amended 
by substituting the word 'shall* for 



March 28th. 1951. 

A-24 
t he word ♦may', after the word 'Minister' in 
line 1, and by substituting the words, 'any 
complaint by any persons' with the words, 'the 
complaint of any person that he' — 
"so that the amended section shall then read; 
"The Minister shall, on the recommendation of 
the Director, designate a Conciliation Officer 
to enquire into any complaint that any person 
has been refused employment, discharged, or 
discriminated against contrary to Section 4, 
or that any person has issued any circular, in 
any form, or published any advertisement, or 
made any enquiry, contrary to Section 5." 
All this amendment would do is to reinstate into the 
Section the same wording which was contained in the first 
Bill which was before this House. The first Bill made it 
possible for complaints to be laid by any person m ile this 
Bill restricts this right to persons immediately affected I 
would suggest the government should agree to this editorial 
change, although "editorial" may not be the corredt word. 

Secondly, that they agree to place the w&rd "shall", as it 
was contained in the first draft for the word "may" which is now 
in the draft. I am not pressing for a vote, but I do 
present it in the hope that the government will agree to 
this amendment. Of course, if they do not, there is no use 
voting on it. 

I suggest it is important, and would allow en 



March 28th, 1951 



A- 25 

organized group in any community, which is aware of a 
discriminatory practice, to bring it to the attention 
of the director, so he could start an investigation. 

MR. DALEY: Mr. Chairman, I do not think in the initial 
period of administration of this Act, I would want that change 
made. It seems to me at the moment v^e have no idea of what 
volume of complaints will come in, and I think they should be 
from the person who claims to have been discriminated against. 

If some group of organized labor came to me, or the 
director, and said "We know this is going on", I believe we 
would investigate it. But I would not want it so that some 
organization other than a labor organization, could Just hav^ 
heard that some person had discriminated against somebody, 
and would send us on all kinds of "wild goose" chas^ only 
to find that the person who claimed to have been discriminated 
against had not been, and the story just was not so. 

I think if a person really feels he has been dis- 
criminated against, for any of the reasons contained in this 
Act, he should be serious enough about it to sign a prescribed 
form, which we will furnish, to indicate to us that this is 
his complaint, I do not think it would be fair to the Depart- 
ment, with the wish to administer this Act fairly and properly, 
to allov/ complaints to come from hither and yon, without 
any foundation of fact behind them. I cannot accept that 
amendment • 

Section 6 agreed. to. 

Oh Section 7: 

MR. PAJIK: Mr. Chairman, on Section 7; I wonder if 
sub-section 3 of Section 7 where the question of reinstatement, 
as appearing in the fif-t-'- and sixth lines, could not be amended 
to include also "hiring and promotion"? I have an amendment 



March 28th, 1951 



A-26 



I could present, but I think if the hon. Minister (Mr, 
Daley) is willing to bring it foi^ard, I will drop the 
matter, so that it will take care of the situation affected 
by an employer not only on the question of reinstatement, 
but also the question of hiring and promotion, 

MR. FROST: The hon. Minister of Labor (Mr, Daley) 
may follow me in this explanation. I have discussed this 
matter with some bodies which are interested in this, 
including the Association for Civil Liberties and some others, 
and we have discussed it with our own advisors. The hon. 
member (Mr, Park) suggest that the word "hiring" — 

MR. PAEIK: Hiring and promotion, 

MR. FROST: Some of the bodies v>/ith whom we have 
discussed it think that "promotion" should not be included, 
but they did suggest that "hiring", should be "employing". 

MR. HARRY NIXON (Brant): V/hat is the difference 
between "hiring" and "employing"? 

MR. FROST: This Act provides, if there is a dis- 
crimination on the part of someone who is employed, the 
Director may make an investigation, and may make a recom- 
mendation, and that even covers the matter of wages. You 
can see it is very much easier. V/e are dealing with a 
new principle in this Bill, in looking for ways and means 
to make the principle workable in the province. From the 
standpoint of resinstatement of an employee who has been 
discriminated against, you might say the quantum meruit 
of the wages is established, and there is not the difficulty 
which would be there, if you used the expression "hiring". 
I feel it is far better to make it simple as it may be, 
and that it has reasonable appearance. It adds to the 



■<'T. . 



[jr. vD. 



X~^''' 



A-E7 

difficulty of administration. 

Mr, Chairman, we feel that one of the great purposes 
of this legislation will be performed by the passage of the 
Bill itself, jJrankly v^e are anxious to keep away from things 
which irritate the public. 

That was the advice we received from the State of 
New York. As the hon. Minister of Labor (Mr. Daley) said, 
he is going over to investigate the situation there after 
the conclusion of this Session of the Legislature, so we 
can see the workings ourselves. In fact, Governor Dewey 
advised me of this last summer, when I asked him about 
the Act, He said there was a lot of misgivings in the 
State of New York on the principle of the Bill. Ho said there 
was at the time a department store which did not employ 
colored persons, because they felt some injury might be 
done to their business. He said that most of these 
employers were very glad to have the opportunity of saying 
"It is the law of the State of New York that we must employ 
these people", with the result that the colored people 
came into employment of this large department store, 

ViTe think that will be the effect of this Bill, 
After all, our people are good people. I think our people 
have already accepted the principle of this Bill, I think 
that is where the greatest good will come. But to get the 
administration of this Act spread into other fields, would 
only create difficulties, and probably would do more harm 
than good at the present time, 

I suggest we keep the Bill as simple as it is 
practical to do, and avoid complications which might create 
bad public relationships, and do more harm than good. 



Mar. 2gth. 1951. 

A-2g 

I would prefer we cut "hiring out of it at the present time, 

MR. PARK: I appreciate the desire of t he hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) to have a Bill which can be administered 
effectively. 

However, I would point out that the operative section 
of this Bill provides that it is an offence on any person 
acting on behalf of an employer to refuse to employ — that 
is, refuse to hire. That may result in a complaint and the 
commission must say "There is nothing in the Act defining our 
power with regard to hiring," This Bill provides less than 
is r equired to carry out the operative portion of the Bill. 
I think that it is absolutely essential the Commission be 
given some power on t he question of hiring, 

I appreciate the hon. Prime Minister's (Mr. Frost) 
point that it is difficult to arrive at a compensable figure 
for loss of earnings because of discriminatory practices 
in hiring. The discretionary power of the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Daley) is pretty bread in this Bill, and I think the common 
sense of the hon^ Minister (Mr. Daley) and the common sense of 
the Director may overcome this problem, I gp sure it is the 
view of the Director, and that of the government that, as far 
as possible, they want this Act carried on through conciliation 
proceedings, rather than through orders of Courts, That is 
the most desirable way of carrying it on. But I do think the 
Commission will be frustrated unless you give them the authority, 

I would ask seriously that the government re-consider its position 
not to include "hiring" in sub-section 3 of Section 3 of the 
B ill. 

MR, SALSBERG: Mr. Chairman, just a word on this 



A-29 

Section. I, too, had a proposal for an amendment on this 
very point, with one additional suggestion, that is, to 
eliminate two words, V(;here it says "without compensation", 
to leave it "with compensation", to make it abundantly clear 
that when a person is reinstated, he is reinstated with 
compensation. 

In regard to the word "hiring", which I call "operat- 
ing"; I think the hon, member for Dovercourt (]VIr, Park) 
calls it "promotion ", I want to give an instance. There 
is a certain firm of which I know on Yonge Street, not far 
from here, where the owner defiantly refuses to employ 
certain people, flagrantly telling them "I will not hire you, 
and if I find out that you are of that group, no matter how 
long you have been here, you will be fired", 

I venture to predict that there will be cases whero 
the Director will have to step in, in precisely such a case, 
where a man declares he will not hire a certain person. 
But that is an unsatisfactory action. It is important in 
a case like that; the principle v/as established that the 
person be engaged. The principle is there, and we hope it 
will clarify the requirements to show there is a difference 
between "reinstatement" and "hiring", and the firm I 
mentioned should be obliged, if only as a demonstration, 
to hire the person whom they refused to hire for no other 
reason except that he is a member of a certain religious 
or other group, I think it would be far better if the 
word "hiring" is included. 

MR, L.Z. WISMER (Riverdale): I wonder if we could 
not get the government to change its mind just a little o 
In the Grade Union movement it has been often said that 
there was no need for legislation of this sort to protect 



March 28th, 1951 



A- 30 



the organized workers, hut through his organization, 
and his collective agreement with the employers, the 
discriminatory act was taken care of in that wayj 
and this sort of legislation was not necessary* It cer- 
tainly is not necessary to protect the people in a closed 
shop agreement, because the Union would do it, especially 
in some of the Union shops with the preferential hiring 
Agreement • 

But in the broad sense, the Trade Union movement 
wants something of this sort, in order to reach to a 
higher level. If an employer is free to hire whom soever 
he wishes, than anything which may be agreed upon between 
the Union and the employer can only affect the people who 
have been freely hired by the employer. 

It seems quite specific, under Section 3, that 
the employer may not, after this Act becomes law, refuse 
to hire. But suppose he does. It would be in violation 
of the Act, and a complaint will come to the Director. 
It seems when the Director attempts to settle that affair, 
he may come all the way, to get to the employer, and 
more or less convince him that he should not have refused 
to employ this person, and yet, under Section 7, he Just 
cannot get the employer to hire that person. That is my 
sole argument, and it seems to me it will reflect in the 
matter of hiring where we have perhaps a large number 
of such discriminatory actions, or the possibilities for 
them. I am just wondering if the government might not ease 
up a bit. The purpose of the wording could be adjusted 
in sub-section 3, so that the question of hiring will not 
be mixed up with the wording in regard to compensation. 
Perhaps there is no loss attributable to the employer in 



March 28th, 1951 



A-31 

some cases, but surely this Act is going to have a very 
restricted application^ it it does not provide for tn effective 
and complete solution for the settlement of cases where there 
have been refusals to hire, in violation of Section 2* 

MR. DALEY: Of course, human beings being what they 
are, I do not believe, by any stretch of the imaginationi 
this Act will create a Utopia, where everybody will follow 
straight along the line. As the hon. Prime Minister (Mr 4 
Frost) stated, by the very passing of this Act, we will 
be encouraging a great many to do the right thing, in 
connection with the matters mentioned here, that is, race, 
creed, color, and so forth, 

I presume if a person actually does not want to hire 
an individual, he can find some other way of refusing to 
hire him, other than for the reasons mentioned here. 



(TAKE "B" FOLLOV/S) 



B-1 



V/e are trying to try, by a process of education 
and appeal to fairness and the fact that the lavi? is there 
to get people to do the right things. 

Now, we gave a lot of time in designing this sec- 
tion, it was considered from all angles and I am not capable 
of Just taking some suggestions quickly and putting it into 
a section, changing it over and have all the answers on vjhat 
it does. I do not think we should do* that. We developed this 
Bill carefully and with the assistance of the Law Clerks 
and the hon. Attorney General (Mri Porter) and I certainly 
would not care to just take a word and change it without 
having an opportunity to consider just what that word meant. 

Now, in connection with the hon. member (Mr. Sals berg) 

"for 
who spoke previously, concerning with or without oompensatiDn/loss 

of earnings" — and other benefits, that is going to be a 

very difficult thing, V/hat was the loss if the man had not 

even been hired? 

MR, SALSBERG: In cases of reinstatement there is a 
loss of time, 

MR. DALEY: Well, we have not had any disputes where a 
man, have been fined for Union activity, at least alleged 
to have been, and ordered reinstated to his post. He might 
have 1 this job and gone into another one tomorrow 
and not lost anything or may have lost a portion of his 
time. All these cases have to be considered and I think 
we almost have to have that, "with or without compe ' sation". 
The very fact he may be ordered reinstated if he laas been 
fired I think in some cases is sufficient, in other cases 
there is monetary loss which mi^ht have been extremely large 
or small and that has to be decided by the Commission. 



March 28th, 1951 



B-2 

I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we should leave the 
Bill as it is until we have an opportunity to work it out. 
Sections 7 to 10 inclusive agreed to. 
On Section 11: 

MR. PARK: Before Section 11 is taken, I wonder if 
the hon. Minister (Mr, Daley) has thought about following 
the practice he follows under the office, shop and factory 
Act, requiring the posting in plants and so-, on of the general 
outline of the Act? I have here the poster that is used in 
Massachusetts on the same subject and this particular poster 
is required under the law with every employer, employment 
agency and labor union. It is pretty well as you do now 
with the Office, Shop and Factory Act and I think the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Daley) might take that matter under conside- 
ration. I will send this poster over to him and he may have 
an opportunity to examine it, 

hlR, DALEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to have it 
because I feel something like that would be necessary, 

MR, SALSBERG: Mr, Chairman, just a last remark on 
this Bill before we finish with it, i have an amendment but I 
am not putting it bef-re you, Mr. Chairman, as a basis fxDr a 
vote on an amendment. T "am reading it in the hope that 
the government will agree to something like it. The proposed 
amendment is as follows: 

"The Minister shall appoint a representative 
F.E.P, Commission whose members are to 
serve without remuneration and whose duties 
it shall be to plan and promote education- 
al programs on a province-wide scale ex- 
plerV-jp-ng the spirit and purpose of this 
Act with a view to eliminate the incidence 



^■•"•u-.do.,3riR.RM 



March 28tli, 1951. 

B-3 

of discrimination in employment and that 
the Minister shall further appoint local 
and regional F.E.P, Commissions whereever 
necessary to work under the guidance of the 
Provincial F.E.P. Commission." 
Now, Mr.. Chairman, just one word. The purpose here 
is to accomplisbjs at least in a preliminary way, what 
practically all sections of the House agreed to as necessary, 
namely, the development of education among the people on 
this issue so that the law will have to be applied only 
rarely, if ever, in time. The main criticism leveled 
against the present Bill v;as that it failed to provide 
the educational machinery. As a Private member, of 
course, I cannot propose anything that calls for the 
expenditure of money but I feel that even a volunatary 
Committee appointed by the government, a representative 
Committee, would accomplish a great deal educationally 
in the province on behalf of the government in the 
development of the kind of attitude that I am sure we all 
desire in the field of employment. 

Perhaps no amendment is necessary, perhaps the 
government thinks that they can appoint such a Committee 
without a specific clause in this Bill. However, I do 
submit it to the £>overiiment for their consideration and I 
am sure that not only I but everyone would welcome some 
indication from the government that a Commission along these 
lines will be brought into being for the purposes already 
Indicated, 

MR. FROST: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) 
of course, raises a very interesting point and, I will say 
to him, a very important point. ' 



B-4 



The fact is, that it is on the body of opinion lying 
behind a law like this that the real force comes. There 
is no doubt about that, it is the public sentiment behind 
any lavj that makes the lav; effective and that is one of 
the difficulties we have in law administration particularly 
in such things as in, for instance, the liquor question 
because of the honest differences of views which are so 
wide and so varied in the province that you have such dif- 
ficulty of enforcement. Now, the hon, member (Mr. Salsberg) 
very ably and very properly pointed out that in the State 
of New York they have such a provision as he m.entioned. 
There is there under the Commission provision for local, 
regional and state wide facilities for educationo Now, 
when this matter vms discussed here, I think a year ago 
or two years ago, we laid emphasis on the matter of educa- 
tion. I think that we felt then and we feel now tiiat the 
education of our people along these lines is very important. 
Nov;, from a practical standpoint, Mr. Chairman, the problem 
arises that our ov;n system of government, Y;ith tho Depart- 
m-ent of Labor, there is no provision in the Department of 
Labor for education on the scale that is envisaged here» 
Actually speaking, it is really a matter more properly 
for the Department of Education and we felt that to add 
this to this Act and make it a function of this Commission 
or the Director and those under him was adding a complicated 
factor which was dividing our efforts. V/e discussed the 
matter x.'ith the hon. Minister of Education (Mr, Porter) 
and at the present time there is taught in cur schools 
I was very glad to hear, I have a niece over here at the 
University and in talking v;ith her I was very happy to find 



March 28th, 1951 



B-5 



out that there is a vjldespread feeling among our young 
people about discrimination. The fact is, that is one 
of the convincing things about this Bill, is the fact that 
our young people so widely take that view* I think the 
Department of Education, with the children that are coming 
along, the 600,000 or 700,000 school children coming along, 
and getting a year older .ach year, that all of this education 
will be accomplished within four or five years. Now, the 
problem arises that some of the others, people who have grey 
hairs like myself, I do not whether we are passed education 
or not. I do not think so, and I think perhaps that is a 
matter that can be dealt with. The fact that this law is 
passed is an Indication to people of our day and generation 
that that is what the people think and what the people want, 
I want to compliment the hon. member for bringing this matter 
up, for stating his case, I think, in a very reasonable and 
proper way and I can assure him we are not unmindful of 
that. The fact is, the point he raised is perhaps the 
most important point in the whole thing. Me are not un- 
mindful of that and we are not leaving that undone. It is 
not necessary to include it in this Act, in fact, it would 
really be undesirable from a standpoint of administration 
to include it but from a standpoint of government practice 
and policy I can assure you it is included in all of our 
schools, in the attitude of our school teachers and I 
think in the syllabus in connection with physics and things 
of that sort and it is being taken cere of really in a 
very satisfactory way. 

Section 11 agreed to. 



March 28th, 1951 



B-6 

Bill No. 121 reported. 

Hon. LSSLIS M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No 23, 

THE SSCHEATS ACT 

clerk: of the house: Twenty-third Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No* 135, "An Act to amend The Escheats 
Act", Mr. Porter* 

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to* 

Bill No. 135 reported, 

Hon. DANi. PORTER (Attorney General): Order No. 24. 

THE LAV/ SOCIETY ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-fourth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 136, "An Act to amend The Law Society 
Act", Mr, Porter. 

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to# 

Bill No, 136 reported. 

Hon, DAIU PORTER (Attorney General): Order No. 25. 

THE MINING ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-fifth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 13V, "An Act to amend The Mining Act", 
Mr. Gemmell, 

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to. 

Bill No. 137 reported. 

Hon. DANA PORTER (Attorney General): Order No, 26, 
THE COMMUNITY" CSin'R:^S ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-sixth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill Ho. 138, "An Act to amend The Commujiity 
Centres Act", Mr, Kennedy, 



B-7 

On Section !• 

MR.,/. DiiltJNISON (St. David): Mr, Chairman, on Section 1, 
I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Minister (Mr, 
Kennedy) to a criticism I have of the definition of a com- 
munity centre under the present Bill. Up in Renfrew county, 
a small group of people at Meade Station undertook to build 
a rink last year and they asked me if they would be entitled 
to help under this Act and I told them I did not see any 
reason why they should not. They got the land on a 20-year 
lease and they took up subscriptions and it turned out that 
because they had the land on a 20-year lease, because the 
farmer would not sell the land to them they were excluded 
from getting a grant for the building of this rink, whereas 
other communities nearby got up to 0^,000. This particular 
rink only cost a matter of $1,000 altogether. The farmers 
cut the logs, they did everything by voluntary work and I 
am wondering if this interpretation, which I believe gives 
a benefit, could not be extended to include others where 
they have a 20-year lease or more, if they could not get 
a grant. 

Hon. T.L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture) : Mr. 
Chairman, we have never done that. I remember having a row 
in my own community about 30 years ago where they did ask 
and I think they Vi;anted to keep the deed in their onw name 
but that institution is now dissolved. The deed was in 
the hands of the township Council, I think that is the only 
lasting body, a tovmship Council or School Board, 

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill No. 138 reported. 



Mar ell 28th, 1951 



B-8 
Hon. DANA PCKTER (Attorney General): Order No. 27. 
REGISTRATION OF NURSES 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty- seventh Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 139, "An Act i-'-.:i* .o'.lng The Registra- 
tion of Nxirses", Mr. Fhi?Iips. 

Sections 1 to 6 inclusive agreed to. 

On Section 7. 

MR, E.B. JOLLIFFE-( Leader of the Opposition): Mr. 
Chairman, may I ask the hon. Minister (Mr. Phillips ) , is 
it the intention to bring this into effect in the near 
future? 

Hon. M, PHILLIPS (Minister of Health): Yes, Mr. Chairman, 
this year, we hope not later than January 1, 1952. As soon 
as the nurses show they are ready to take it over, we are 
ifteady to declare it. 

Sections 7 and 8 agreed to. 

Bill No. 139 reported. 

Hon. DAITA. PORTER (Attorney General): Order No 28. 

NURSING 

CLERIC OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-eighth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 140, "An Act respecting Nursing", 
Mr. Phillips. 

Sections 1 to 11 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill No. 140 reported. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Chairman, 
I move the Committee do now rise and report certain Bills. 

Motion agreed to. 



March 28th, 1951 



B-9 

The House resumes, Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 

MR. T.L. PATRICK (Middlesex North): Mr. Speaker, 
the Committee begs leave to report certain Bills without 
amendment and begs leave to sit again. 

Motion agreed to. 



(TAKE "C" FOLLOV/S) 



,ql 



Mar. 2 8 



C-1 



HON. LEbLIE M. FiiOST: Mr. Speaker, Order No. 
20, private bills, 

CITY OF TORONTO 

CLERK O'F the HOUSE: Twentieth Order; second 
reading, Bill No. 27, an Act Respecting the City of 
Toronto. Mr. Blackvrell. 

Mi. C. E. REh (St. Patrick): Mr. Speaker, in 
the absence of Mr. Blackwell, I beg to move second 
reading of Bill rlo.27, ^n act Respecting the City of 
Toronto. 

MR. FROST: This Bill was before the House 
and there was some debate on one of the sections 
relating to pension. I think the feeling was that 
the city of Toronto might discuss that section of 
the bill with the private members. Could anybody 
give us any advice on that? Personally, no one has 
approached me on it, 

MR. J. B. S..LSBEiiG (St. Andrews.): I am sorry 
to advise the Hon. I'rime Minister (I^. Frost) that the 
city council did not call the members together for 
discussion. I appeared before the Board of Control 
and urged them to convene the Toronto members for 
the purpose of discussing the Bill which is before 
the House which imitates the legislation they asked 
for this year, and I was given assurance that this 
would be considered and something would be done. I am 
sorry to feay that to my knowledge nothing was done, 
I do not think any other hon. member for Toronto 
ridings can give any better advice. 



kar.28,1951 



C-2 

r-lR. REa: With respect to the first part of 
the Bill I know the city of Toronto is very anxious 
to get it through, I feel that perhaps if we delete 
that part about which the discussion obtains and carry 
on with the bill from there, the city of Toronto would 
be satisfied. 

TiR. FROST: Fair enough. 

luR. JOLLJFFE: i/iHiich section is that? 

MR. DENNISON: Section 3. I think if we 
shoiild delete section 3 — I am directing my remarks 
to the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Dunbar) 
and perhaps Section 4 — 

HON. G. H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal 

Affairs): Section 3 in Committee? 

MR. DENNISON: Yes. 

m. DUNBER: I think that is quite right. 

MR. FROST: Let it go to Committee and it 
can be dealt with, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Yes, 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the 
Bill, 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order 
No. 30. 

REGULATION OF LEASEHOLDS 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Thirtieth Order, Second 
Reading; Bill No, 133, ^n Act to Provide for the Regu- 
lation of Leaseholds, Mr. Porter. 

HON. DANii PORTER (Attorney-General): Mr, 
Speaker, I beg to move the second reading of Bill No, 
133, An Act to Provide for the Regulation of Leaseholds. 



C-3 

I do not know that I have very rauch to add 
to what I have stated on the first reading of this 
Bill. I think the hon. members of the House are fully- 
aware of the nature of this problem, that there is 
still a situation in this province which requires con- 
trol of leasehold premises. I did suggest in my 
statement on first reading that it was the intention 
of the Government to appoint two committees, one a 
select committee of this House to sit in between this 
Session and the next for the purpose of considering, 
reviewing and making recommendations in connection 
with the regulations which will be adopted by the 
passing of this Act and at the same time there will 
be another Comjuittee of a different nature consisting 
of a judge and two other persons representing the 
landlord interest and the tenant interest. I believe 
the question has been raised since the first reading 
as to whether these committees will sit concurrently, 
I do not know that it will be necessary to decide at 
this date exactly when or how these committees may 

sit but what we visualize as to the function 
of these two committees is simply that the hon. members 
of this House who will sit on the select committee are 
constantly in touch with the changing situation as it 
occurrs throughout the province in one way and another 
made keenly aware of some of the iniquities which may 
develop under a system of this kind and who are, no 
doubt aware of many iniquities which have developed 
under the present regulations and that they would be 
in a very good position to focus attention on these 



Mar. 28* 



C-4 

pro.jlems and endeavour to wf.rk out ways and means of 
dealing with these problems from time to time. On 
the other hand, the other committee is of a somewhat 
different nature. One of its functions vrould be to 
consider recommendations brought forv/ard by the select 
committee, not from a point of view which we might 
have as members of the Legislature, but from the 
point of view of the conflict of interest between the 
two groups chiefly concerned — the landlords, the 
tenants, and the impartial view of one who has no 
particular interest, whatsoever, — a committee which 
can consider, and assist in recommending any 
changes which might have to be made, a committee which 
will be useful and of assistance to the select com- 
mittee. No doubt much information which might come 
forward before the select committee could be turned 
over to the other committee for consideration. That 
is the view we have as to the function of these two 
bodies. We are not bound by any definite preconcep- 
tions as to just exactly hov; each of these committees 
might sit or how they might integrate the work. That 
will become more apparent when the committees begin 
to sit and tackle this complex problem, 

I have nothing further to add to what I 
have said before advancing this bill, except to say 
I think that the method of handling this problem, by 
the terms of this bill, is about the only practicable 
way it could be dealt with under present conditions. I 
therefore hope that the House will pass this bill on 
second reading. 



Mar. 28, 51 



C-5 

MR. DENNISON: Mr. Speaker, I believe this 
bill is probably the only way of handling the situation 
at the present time. I am very sorry, however, that 
a year ago before the control situation degenerated 
into its present hodgepodge 

MR. PORTER: We are now dealing with the prin- 
ciple of this Bill, Mr. Speaker. 

I.R. DENMISGN: or patchwork pattern, 

that something was not done. I think that is deplorable. 
The problem, as I see it to-day, is how to bring some 
sort of order and justice out of chaos because o\ir 
rent control situation in the larger cities of Ontario 
now is very, very unfair both as to landlords and 
tenants. I can give you cases of tv;o apartment 
buildings sitting side by sidn, one under control and 
the tenants paying $40.00 or I5O.OO a month; the other 
decontrolled and the tenants paying anywhere from 
sfSO.OO to ^^125.00 a month, I can give you situations 
where there are houses side by side in that category. 
That certainly is not justice either to the landlords 
concerned or to the tenants concerned. It is deplor- 
able, I think, that the federal government should 
have taken that method of decontrol and left this 
Legislature with a problem on its hands of this sort. 
I am going to tell you, the person who undertakes to 
bring order and justice out of this situation as it 
exists to-day is going to have a great many problems. 

MR. DUNBAR: If you are on that Committee I 
will watch you. 

MR. DENNISON: I will be difficult. 



Mar. 28. 



C-6 

. MR. DUNBaPl: You are on that committee now. 

M. PORTER: You certainly are on the Committee. 

liR. DENNISON: My riding is particularly 
concerned about this. I believe that the big majority 
of people in my riding, and even among the home owners, 
want to see controls continued. On the last day of 
>^pril we would have had chaos if such legis- 
lation as this were not passed. I am wondering, 
however, how v/e are going to solve, and certainly just 
taking over the federal law as is, is not going to 
solve controls, but will just perpetuate existing 
injustices. I am wondering how we are going to solve 
a problem such as this, 

MR. PORTER: It is all very well for the hon. 
member for St. David (Mr. Dennison) to speak on the 
principle of this bill. I do not know v;hy we should go 
into all sorts of particular examples of what might be 
considered and dealt with by the Committee and by 
Orders in Council, to deal with this problem, when we 
have an opportunity of getting all the facts and 
information which will be before these bodies. Surely 
it is not advancing matters of concern to this House to 
deal with the sort of problems which will properly be 
dealt with once this bill is passed, and we take unto 
ourselves the power to deal with the. e matters. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: It is quite relevant. 

MR. FROST: But superfluous. 

MR. PORTER: I am not objecting. 

I'iR, JOLLIFFE: I must point out that it now 
becomes necessary 



i 



C-7 

MR. fORTER: I have withdrawn my objection. 

I'-iR. JOLLIFFE: Lest anyone should harbour the 
illusion that it has any merit, this bill now neces- 
-.rrily represent a great deal of delegated legislation. 
It is going to delegate very great powers to the 
government. That type of bill certainly invites the 
kind of discussion the hon. member for St. David (Mr. 
Dennison) is carrying on. 

KR. PORTER: I withdraw any suggestion with 
respect to principle. 

i.R. DENNISON: I v/ant to point out the situation, 
A year and a half ago, the federal authorities told and 
tenants and landlords of this city that rent control 
was going to b e abolishud at the end of last April, 
1950. On the basis of that statement certain tenants 
made other arrangements, they bought properties away 
beyond their means, others held on hoping the govern- 
ment would break its announced intention — they 
probably had some experience with previous pronouncements 
of that kind — they continued under control at the old 
rate. Those who took the federal government's pronounce- 
ment seriously, prior to -f^pril 30, 1950, were the ones 
who were c§,ught and put under decontrol, because they 
moved out. The same thing has happened again. Again, 
we viere told that the federal government would move out 
of the field on the 30th of April and this time apparently 
they are going to move out. ViJe are moving in after the 
horse has been stolen, after this reckless decontrol has 
been only half accomplished. People to-day are pretty 
worried about this. I agree with the idea of setting up 



div 



Mar. 2 8 



a committee v/hich will hear complaints from both sides, 
but I can see no solution other than to make some 
adjustment where, in the case of smaller accommodation 
some people pay $50.00 or v60.00 a month higher than 
others. I think some adjustment should be made to 
bring down those who have gone away above reason, sky 
high, and perhaps allow allow an adjustment with 
respect to those in the lower categories, 

WR. DUNBaR: Is that not the idea of this bill? 

liR. DENNISON: I hope so.. ,- 

KR. ELLIS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point 
out to the Hon. Attorney General (Mr. Porter) that 
while the bill undoubtedly is all that which is being 
tasked for at this particular time, the government is 
also inheriting a variety of problems in respect to 
eviction, in respect to rentals on leasehold property 
and so on down the line. There is no provision in 
the bill and I do not think the c.mmittee could bring 
in recommendations soon enough to prevent that. Surely 
somebody in the Department has made a study of it by 
now. I feil that in this bill at this time there 
should be some clause giving some direction to those 
who Vifill be evicted as of April 30 under the present 
federal legislation, because, after all, all you are 
doing is taking over the federal regulations, './here 
they fall short, you have nothing to offer. Is that 
not right? 

MR. PORTER: Vi/e can change them by order-in- 
council at any time under this bill, 

IViR. ELLIS: In other words, you are in a position 



Mar.2g 



C-9 

,to meet, then, a condition of evictions which will follow 
on April 1st — 

MR. FORTER: There will not be any evictions 
following April 1st, except those which may be allowed 
under the federal regulations. We are taking over the 
federal regulations as they are. Insofar as those 
regulations would prevent evictions at the end of 
April, we are preserving that status by this bill 
until any order-in-council is passed which might change 
that or amend it . 

]VIR. ELLIS: I believe that many of those eviction 
warrants are out now for these decontrolled properties. 
The present federal regulations do not control that 
situation. That presents an immediate problem. I 
think something should be done, put in the bill to 
meet that problem. At the present time there is not. 

There is a further phase which is important, 
namely, the rental and housekeeping rooms. There is 
no federal regulation in respect of that phase. That 
is one of the sources of greatest exploitations in 
our housing shortage in the industrial centres to-day. 
I point out tc the Hon. Minister (Mr. Porter) that is 
something which needs to be dealt with immediately 
because of the serious attempt of landlords to 
exploit those who are faced with eviction at the 
present time and who have to move into these so- 
called housekeeping rooms and working houses in 
general. 

However, I would like to p^' int out that, irres- 
pective of all we can do at the present time in 



C-10 

trying to control the situation with respect to the 
rental bill, the fact remains there is only one 
permanent solution and that is low-rental, 
subsidized housing. I think when the Hon. Minister 
(Mr. Porter) goes into the matter and when the 
committee has an opportunity to look into this matter, 
they will realize, too, that the province of Ontario, 
must, of necessity, bring about low rental subsidized 
housing as an answer to the needs of those who are 
to-day the victims of the housing shortage, 

Wnile the bill is a move in the right direction, 
it certainly does not answer completely the problems 
with which we are faced. 

MR. C. C. CaLDER (London): The remarks just 
addressed to this House by the hon. member for Essex 
North (Mr. Ellis) evoked a comment from some hon. 
member on this side of the House that the Bill is re some- 
things hoped for and the essence of things 
not seen, a great many people have gathered the 
impression that this bill involves a new deal in 
rent control, V.'e are just going to taper off as 
best we can from the point at which we are taking 
over. Ae has been indicated, that is a point which 
is rather difficult, that is widely out of balance, 
and it is charged with that thing which is nearer 
class warfare than any other department of civil life, 
and that is antagonism between landlord and tenant. 
That antagonism v/ill permeate the discussions in 
committee in this House and in the administration of 
this bill. It is one of the most wretched things 



Mar.2fi 



C-11 

which has come into Canadian life. V^e have to bring 
in this bill, and in housing as the hon. member for 
Essex North (fir. Ellis) has just said, a real attempt 
to minimize it. It is v;orse than anything that you 
see sporadically in labour relations, because, after 
all, when a strike comes to an end that eventually dies 
down. V/hen you are dealing with landlord and tenant 
it is that close daily contact which generates the 
most obnoxious kind of friction. It gives rise to a 
problem which is going to be immensely difficult with 
which to deal in administering this bill. What I 
hope the House realized, and if I am wrong I hope the 
Hon. Attorney-General (Mr. Porter) will correct me, is 
that there is no intention, as I understand it, to use 
even the wide regulatory powers which are here vested 
in the administration to re-write a nev; set of rent 
control regulations; you are just going to do a patching 
job on the regulations we are now taking over from 
Ottawa. That you should be armed with those powers 
at this time is a desirable thing. I think the govern- 
ment is entitled to the credit of being fore-handed 
in this matter. Yesterday and to-day I have been a 
little irked, but I have kept my silence et various 
points and v/hich the powers which must necessarily 
rest in a Minister, in the Lieutenant-Governor, have 
been called into question. I do not see any escape 
from that. If the abuse comes, then let the criticism 
come. 

MR. PARK: Before the bill is given second reading, 
I think this should be said, that the government is 



/ 



iHar.2B 



C-12 

about one year late in taking action on this question. 
Had the government acted a year ago, when the federal 
government made its statement, in December, 1949, 
some of the complications that the committee will 
have to wrestle with, would not have occurred. That 
is the first point which needs to be made . Tho 
indecision of the government on this question has 
created more trouble than we would otherwise have 
to contend with. I regret that the government, in 
taking the steps it has taken on this occasion has 
decided merely to take over the disorderly decontrol 
which is going on under the federal regulations, 
That is ^'^^ only way you oan describe .he present 
rent control regulations in face of the.... 

situations described by the hon. member 

for St. David (Mr. Dennison), There are, I am 
sure, others who can give instances where you have one 
single apartment building with six or seven identical 
apartments in it, v/ith five or six of the tenants of 
those apartments on one scale of rent and the seventh 
tenant whose apartment has been decontrolled, paying 
some exorbitant rent, all kinds of situations have 
been allowed to develop under the federal decontrol 
measures. All we are doing is taking over 
th© unsatisfactory regulations for the time being. 
i/e are not "stepping into the problem" at all, 
j-t is true that we are giving wide povrers to the 
government to pass by order-in- council regulations 
which may emanate from the committee of the House, in 
the meanwhile the situation continues to deteriorate. 



Mar. 2 8 



C-13 

I feel that the government is subject to criticism 

that it did not act one year ago on this question, 

failure. ^ ., , ^ , .^ ^ . 

That , as I say, contributed to the situation 

which we now face. I regret particularly that the 

government has not indicated its viewpoints on the 

question of commercial rents, because that subject 

is becoming increasingly important. The fact that 

commercial rents are uncontrolled leaves a great many 

of our retailers, parti cularly, in the position where 

part of their costs have been uncontrolled. There is 

all kinds of racketeering going on in commercial rents 

at the present time. I think it would have been v;ell 

worth while if the government had stated at this stage 

that commercial rents were to be frozen at this 

point until such time as we can work out, through the 

committee, the proposals that the government will 

eventually write into its regulations. I know of 

situations where merchants, who have been established 

for years, are facing the wall because of the use 

by landlords of the lack of control on commercial 

rents Leases are being re-written in the middle 

of the term under pressure that the merchant will be 

evicted if he does not agree to tremendous increases 

in rents, I can think of one place. The other day, 

a druggist living in a store in the constituency I 

represent in this House, was told that his rent would 

go up immediately $65.00 a month, though his lease 

does not run out until next December, If he did 

not agree to the immediate increase of sp65.00 a 

month, he would face eviction next December, and 



C-14 

they would give him his notice because that premises 
was not controlled. The result is that he is going 
to meet that increase in rent of sp65.00 monthly and 
his customers will have to pay ±-^^, 

That is the kind of circumstance which is 
• going on and which will not be corrected by this 

piece of legislation or by the policy the 
government has enunciated, I think we would have been 
far better off j and the committee would have been in a 
position to take action to improve the 
situation, if the government said that, ^'As now we are 
freezing all rents in Ontario — commercial and 
otherwise — those which have been previously decon- 
trolled or otherwise That the Cbmmittee from 
now on will work out a formula for improvement in the 
situation." Certainly there has to be mediation, 
certainly there have to be adjustments made. Anyone 
who makes even a most elementary examination of the 
situation would agree that is so. We need 

to have the present situation at least tied down and 
tied down tight, because wach and every day it gets 
worse. Then ^ the c>3rnmittee can do an effective job, . 
I am only sorry that the government failed to act a 
year ago. 

As a matter of fact, it is worth noting 
that one year ago the level of the rent indexes for 
the city of Saskatoon and the city of Toronto were 
about even. As a result of the action of the province 
of Saskatchewan in stepping into this field one year 
ago instead of waiting until this year, is that the 



Mar.2S 



C-15 

rent index in Saskatoon jumped only one point in the 
past year, while the rent index in the city of Toronto 
jijmped 15 points. Those are the only two cities in 
each of those provinces for which the federal 
government keeps a rent - index. The failure of 
this government to act a year ago has already cost the 
people of Ontario a great deal in suffering and has 
increased the irritations 

and the attitudes which the hon. member for London 
(Mr. Calder) mentioned in his few remarks to this 
House a moment ago. 

The bill, as far as it goes, of course, is a 

step Jn the right direction, because of v;hich it must be 
supported, I wish the government had 
indicated that it was prepared with respect to its 
policy to go a great deal further, 

SOME HON. MMBERS: 0ear, hear. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill, 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order 
No. 26, Public Bills and Orders. 

THE FACTORY, SHOP AND CFFICEBUILDING ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 26th Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 92, an Act to Amend the Factory, 
Shop and Off icebuilding Act. Mr. Gordon. 

MR. G. T. GORDON ( Brant fo rd ) : Mr. Speaker, 
I beg to move second reading of Bill No. 92, an Act to 
Amend the Factory, Shop and Off icebuilding Act. 

MR. FROST: I believe that the committee 
approved of the bill introduced by the hon. member for 
Brantford (Mr. Gordon). If that is so, we would give 



Mar.2S 



C-16 

the bill second reading. I understand this bill was 
approved of by the Municipal Committee? 

MR. GORDON: Yes; but it was amended; instead 
of "The council shall pass a by-law on being presented 
with a petition from the merchants," it now reads 
that "The council may pass a by-law"; in other words, 
while the bill is acceptable, remains the fact that 
really the teeth are being taken out of it. "The 
council may". The Act now deals with half day; it 
says "shall". 

HON. C. Daley (Hon. Minister of Labour): Mr. 
Speaker, I must say I am a little bit confused about 
just what the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Gordon) 
means. If a petition containing 755^ of the names of 
people in a certain type of activity requests the 
council to pass a by-law, they must pass a by-law, 
at the present time; but, it is for a half-day; the 
hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Ijordon) is now saying 
it has been amended so that w);-''t the retail merchants 
wanted was to change the half -day to a whole day, 
so that the council vrould have authority to pass a 
by-law closing those particular shops for a whole day 
rather than a half-day. Is that right? 

i'lR. GORDON: No, the half-day still stands. They 
can petition for a half-day or they can petition for a 
whole day, 

MR. DALxiiY: But to-day it says they shall pass a 
by-law if they receive the required number of signatures 
on petition, 

MR. GORDON: For the half-day. 



C-17 

M. DALEY: Now they can decide whether they 
want to pass a by-law at all, or not, for a half-day 
or a full day, 

MR. GORDON: They may. 

MR. FROST: Perhaps I had better hold this 
until the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. 
Dunbar) comes back. 

Might I move the adjournment of the debate 
on this bill and we will hold it until the Hon. 
Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr, Dunbar) comes 
back? 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, I move that you do now leave the chair and the 
House resolve itself into the Committee of Supply, 

Motion agreed to. 

House in Committee of Supply. (Mr, Stewart 
in the Cha.l.r.) 

MR. CHAlR]\iAN: Page 75, the Department of 
Planning and Development. Vote 12B. 

On Vote 12S. 

MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): Are we not 
going to hear from the Hon. Minister of Planning and 
Development (Mr. Greisinger)? 

HON. V/. GRIESINGER (Minister of Planning and 
Development): Mr. Chairman, on March 8, during the 
debate on the Budget I felt that I had given quite a 
clear explanation of the activities of the Department 
of Planning and Developm.ent . I mentioned eight 
different divisions and I am quite willing to answer 
any further questions which may be brought up under 



har.2a 



the votes. 

llRi MacLEOD: Perhaps the Hon. Minister of 
Planning and Development (Mr. Greisinger) could give to 
us a brief resume of what he said then. After all, 
that is a long time ago, 

MR. GREISINGE.i: It would take up too much 
time, 

MR. R. THORNBERRY( Hamilton Centre). : Mr. 
Chairman, I notice the amount of travelling expenses 
is set at s,>2,000 last year, the total expenses for 
travelling were Si55,642., and next to that is maintenance, 
This year ^11,7^0; Imt year only 4)3,600. There is 
considerable variance between those figures. Perhaps 
the Hon. I inister (Lr. Greisinger) could give us a 
word of explanation. 

MR. GREISIMGiR: In connection with the 
question the member for Hamilton- Centre (Mr. Thornberry) 
I might say that I took a trip to the United Kingdom 
with one of the officials in connection with different 
matters pertaining to Ontario House, That is the 
reason the travelling expenses were so much higher 
at that tim.e. I did not quite get the second question. 
The hon. member for Hamilton- Centre (rir. Thornberry) 
says "maintenance". Last year it was *11,400; this 
year it is $11,7^0 — just about the same. 

r-iK. THURIIBERRY: I was taking it as being 
for one department, along. 

Votes 12g and 129 agreed to. 

On Vote 130. 

MR. J. L. EASTON ('.Jentworth) : On Vote 130, 



C-19 



I 



with respect to a party of conservation authorities, 
I believe a matter of 75 people travelled to New 
York State to look over some conservation projects 
there. Is that taken care of by the si>7,000 allotted 
last year for expenses in that respect, or were there 
3e;.-r rate items? 

MR. GREISINGER: Yes. I think that was 
taken out of the expenses of last year. 



(Take D follows) 



D-1 

MR. EAST ON: Mr. Chairman, under the same vote, I be- 
lieve that conservation authorities now do get federal and 
provincial assistance in setting up remedial works. V/ould the 
hon. Minister (Mr. Griesinger) indicate whether c onservat ion 
authorities can be set up by the municipalities along the 
lakeshores, and would these authorities be able to receive 
financial assistance from the federal and provincial govern- 
ments to aid in combatting lakeshorc erosion to valuable farm 
lands? 

MR. GRIESINGER: Mr. Chairman, we have had several re- 
ports on shore erosion, we have endeavoured on several occa- 
sions to establish authorities in order that we ould attempt 
to get federal assistance. However, I must point out that in 

order to get federal assistance there is no conservation Act 
by the federal authorities comparable to our ovm and each case 
must be handled individually or processed individually. If an 
authority is set up that authority then brings to the conserva- 
tion board or to the department of Planning and development a 
scheme that they would like to have approved; if thnt scheme 
is approved by several departments of government involved, then 
it is processed with a viev/ of obtaining 37-^^ per cent assis- 
tance from the federal government, 

ive. -.E. TSIviPLE (High Park): Mr. Chairman, under vote 
130, I notice an item of ^750. for books, magazines, ,:.nd 
in vote 12 "^ there is an item for books and magazines. 7/hat 
magazines and books does the department buy and what do they 
do with them? You can buy a lot of them for 0750, 

IvjR. GHI.o3IiiGER: In both the community planning branch 
and also the conservation branch, we attempt to get all the 
information we possibly can that is going on not only in the 
United Kingdom but in the United otates and other countries 



March 36, 1951. 

D-2 

in order to keep ourselves more or less abreast of what they are 
tryinG "to do just for our own information and for our records, 
V/e have a complete library over there that can be referred to 
on matters of community planning or conservation, as it may 
apply in the United Kingdom or the United btates or any other 
Countries that have passed a conservation or community planning 
Act. 

hJR. TAEBlali: J/Ir. Chairman, before leaving vote 130, I 
wonder if the hon. Minister (I.ir. Griesinger) could explain the 
present status of the Humber Valley Conservation programme. At 
one time there was a very elaborate plan to develop the banks 
of the Humber and turn it into a playground, I believe, to pro- 
vide a driveway up the Humber and nothing has been done to my 
knowledge so far. I just wondered if the hon. liinister (Mr. 
Griesinger) would explain what the plans are? 

I'JR. GHIxioINGijjR: The hon. member (i:r. Temple) is quite 
right, there has not been anything done in connection with the 
Humber for this reason, the policy of the government up to the 
present time has been to look after flood control measures. 
There is actually no flood control in this in so far as the 
Humber is concerned, it is more to reforesting, playgrounds, 
and recreational facilities, and up to this time we have not gone 
into that kind of conservation, if you want to call it that, 

MR. TETiPLE: I think the playgrounds and recreation part 
of the programme is perhaps one of the very important parts 
and something that the government should go ahead with. In 
the green area surrounding Toronto v;e have an opportunity to 
provide sunshine and fresh air for the people of the city and I 
think we should do our utmost to provide that* and worthwhile 
projects of this kind. Is there any hope that the hon. Minister 



Mai?ch 2g, 1951. 



D-3 

(Mr. Griesinger) would do something about it, perhaps this year 
or in the near future? Is there anything we can do to persuade 
him to go ahead with it? 

FiR. GRIESINGER; f/lr . Chairman, I must say I am in entire 
agreement with the hon. member for High Park (Mr. Temple), I 
certainly believe in playgrounds and recreational facilities 
and it is hoped that some day we will be able to get into that 
phase of conservation. However, I must say that up to the pre- 
sent time the only scheme that has been submitted by the Humber 
Valley authority is reforestation and that has been granted* 
I cannot give you a report at the present time as to how far 
they proceeded on that, 

M. TEMPLE: In connection with the Humber Valley, at 
this time last year when we viere discussing these estimates, 
the Humber was flooding and the town of Bolton was under about 
three feet of water. Has anything been done to correct that 
situation and to prevent its recurrence again? 

MR. GRIESINGER: Mr. Chairman, to my knov;ledge, I do not 
recall it ever being brought to my attention that they had a 
flood situation on the Humber. 

M. TEMPLE: It was very bad. 

MR. DENNISON: They had a very, very bad flood. 
MR. GRIESINGER: They have not applied up to the present 
time for any flood control scheme. It is not the Etobicoke 
you are thinking of, is it? 

m. C. H. MILLARD (York I-Jest): Mr. Chairman, on vote 
130, again on the Humber, last year and the year before on 
this particular estimate I raised the question of the govern- 
ment policy as initiated by the former hon. Minister of 
Planning and Development, the first hon. Minister of Planning 



March 2S, 1951. 



D-4 



and Development (]\Ir. Porter) and at that time, soon after the 
election, in 194S the hon. Minister (Mr, Porter) promised the 
Humber Valley authority that the government vrauld subscribe 
75 per cent of the funds necessary to start the conservation 
programme at the head v/aters of the Humber and the statement 
was made at that time that the 75 per cent would be forthcoming 
whether or not the federal authorities could be induced to pay 
half, or 372 per cent of that cost. Now, the Humber Valley 
authority people went ahead, and they got options on certain 
lands, farm lands and marsh lands in the head waters of the 
Humber only to find that the 75 per cent promised was reneged 
upon, 

HON. G. A. l/ELSH (Provincial Secretary): Mr. Chairman, 
I was the hon. Minister of Planning and Development when that 
situation arose. 

MR. MILLARD: You are not the hon. Minister of Planning 
and Development that made the promise definitely and pi;Micly 
in my presence at the Old Mill in 1945. 

MR. WELSH: The matter came up for discussion v/hen I was 
in that department and there was no promise made at any time 
the Eunber development, that we would pay that if the Federal 
government agreed to pay their share which they did not do 
during my tenure of office. 

MR. MILLARDl I would like to say definitely to the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Welsh) that he is absolutely mistaken in that 
statement. The statement v/as made by the then hon. Idnister 
of Planning and development (Mr. Porter) at the Old Piill after 
the election in 194^, that that v/ould be done regardless of 
whether or not the federal government gave the 37g per cent. 
It was published in the Globe and Mail and I v/as present at the 



D-5 

meeting v;here it was made to the Humber Valley authority and 
that authority is headed by a good supporter of the government.' 
V/hen they came to collect they could not collect and found out 
too la-te, they let their options go and the whole scheme of the 
Humber Valley authority fell into disuse because the government 
reneged on its promise. There is no provision this year for any 
monies of this kind in this estimate and I would like to know 
iirhether you are going to pay these Valley authorities, or whether 
you are not going to back them ;because that is the beginning of 
the end of the programme if you do not support or start paying 
at the head v/aterp and do not start the conservation programme. 
There is nothing you can do about park land at the bottom end of 
the Humber River until something is done about the head waters. 
I would like to know, if the government meant what it said or 
did they not mean it. Do they meah something else? Are they 
going to support these Valley authorities, or are they not going 
to support them? 

M. GRIESINER: I-'lr. Chairman, I cannot speak for the 
former hon. Minister of Planning and Development (Fir. Porter). 

M. MILLARD: You all represent the same government, 
surely you have not a different policy every time you have a 
new hon. Minister? 

M. GRIESINGER: I have no idea of whether he did 
or did not make the promise and as far as I understand, he did 
not make a promise to that effect. ; He explained it was 
based on the fact that 375 per cent would come from the federal 
authorities. Now, the policy of the present Department of 
Planning and Development in so far as the Humber is concerned, is 
v/e are quite willing to put our 375 per cent in but I am in 
no position to say what the federal authorities will give. 



March 2g, 1951. 



D-6 

At the time that was put before them they did hot see fit to 
make a grant of 37i per cent but the present authority is 374 
per cent in so far as this government is concerned. 

MR. R. THORNBERRY (Hamilton Centre): IJould you say then 
at that time the hon. Minister (Mr, Porter) made an improper 
promise? 

MR. GRIESINGER: I cannot speak for him. 

MR, MILLARD: f4r. Chairman, I simply cannot al2)ow the 
government to make a definite commitment publicly and then say 
they are not responsible for any such promise, and I would like 
to know if the hon. Minister (Ilr. Mriesinger) , if he is pre- 
pared, if I bring the absolute evidence that the promise was . 
made, to carry it o'Jit? 

MR. FROST: I might say to the hon. member (Mr. Millard) 
that we are very definitely interested in these valley program- 
mes . The fact is, we have made what, has not been done 

with the federal government, for a dozen years; we have 
entered into, I think, three separate partnerships this last 
year. Now, I think the report on conservation took this 
position, and I think quite properly, that to have a properly 
integrated plan in connection with conservation, you must have 
all three levels of government. I think that is one of the 
statements or recommendations in the Conservation Report, 
Now, I think it v/ould be a great mistake l^'or the provincial 
government to start entering into these projects without another 

partner in it. * ^'^•e have discussed this matter at great 

hon. 

length with/Mr, Winters at Ottawa and I understand under the 
Conservation Act of ^Canada that they are, unless the Korean 
Uar situation lias interfered with their dec: s ion, 

I think they are prepared this coming year to enter into quite 



D-7 

an extensive partnership with us . Now, that v;as evidenced last 
year by the arrangement which v/e made in connection v/ith the 
Kent marshes, I think we made avery decent deal with the fe- 
deral government there. The big Fanshaw arrangement, will 
involve ^4 million or 4p5 million which is a big project and the 
Luther propositions, all of that has taken place since this 
House last met. I think the hon^ member for York I/est (I'lr, 
Millard) would agree with this, that it would be a great mistake 
to depart from the partnership we have so patiently endeavoured 
to form over a period of years and xirhich is now functioning. 
After all, our participation ought to be 374 per cent, federal 
participation the same amount, and the municipal 25 per cent, 
that is the way to get things done and I think it ivould be c mis- 
take to enter into these projects on our own. 

MR. MILLARD: Mr. Chairman, the previous hon. Minister 
of Planning and Development (Mr. Porter) is now in the House, 
I wonder if he would take his seat in the House, and deny that he 
ever made a definite promise in regard to this matter on behalf 
of this government regarding the 75 per cent to be paid by the 
provincial government, whether or not the federal government 
entered into this scheme in the Humber Valley ^'^ the Old Mill 
in August, 194S' 

HON. G. H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal Affairs): Let 
us go to the country, boys, 

SOl-iE hon. l^JEMBERS: Oh,' oh, 

MiR. MILLaRD: i/'ill you give me the answer to the ques- 
tion? I am asking the hon. Attorney-General (l-Ir. Porter) v/hen 
he was previously the hon. Minister of Planning and Development 
did he not at the Old Mill in August, 19 4^ make the very de- 
finite promise on behalf of the government of that day that in 



March 2S, 1951. 



D-a 



regard to the development of the Hiimber Valley tinder the Hiomber 
Valley authorities, that the provincial government, 
v/hether or not the federal government paid the 37i per cent, 
would pay 75 per cent of the cost of approved projects of that 
authority? '/as that statement not made by the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Porter)? 

HON. DaNA porter (Attorney-General): Vjr. Chairman, I do^o't 
recall making an^ such statement in 1949 or any other time. I 
recall the meeting up there and several questions that v;ere asked, 

MR. I^cLEOD: l.Tiat were you doing at the Old Idll? 

MR. PORTER: I recall a lot of questions, but I cannot 
remember everything, 

MR. R. A. McE'/ING (Uellington North): Mr. Chairman, in 
regard to this vote, the conservation branch, listening to the 
hon. Prime I-dnister's (Ilr. Frost) remarks about their activities 
suggests that one of their great plans or projects v/as the 
Luther marsh and dam. 

MR. FROST; It is not a very large one. 

MR, McEIJING: So, the thing I was going to point out v/as 
that the Department of Planning and Development has had very 
little part in that. 

MR. FROST: Very little? 

MR. McEl'JING: There can be very little credit going 
for taking that up, it has been waiting for four or five years, 

MR. FROST: Are we not in for 37i per cent? 

MR, McEIJING: Oh yes, but the Department of Planning 
and Development is not paying that particularly, 

MR. FROST: ITho is paying? 

MR. McE^.'ING: As far as getting it ready, it has been 
sitting there for years and years. 



March 2$, 1951. 



D-9 

MR. FROST: That is one thing, this government gets 
things done . 

MR. McEl/ING: That agreement was there before this branch 
but nothing — 

HON. G. H. DOUCETT (Minister of Highways): It was under 
a Commission, 

MR. McEvING: Yes, that is right. 

MR. FR013T: Objection noted. 

MR. CHAIRI':"AN: Order. 

MR. F. R. OLIVER (Grey South): Could the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Griesinger) tell the House how many river or watershed 
surveys have been completed and the reports published by the 
Department? 

MR. GRIESINGER: Would you like to have the names or just 
the number? 

MR. OLIVbR: No, the number. 

m. GRIESINGER: 13. 

MR. SALS BERG: That is a lucky number. 

IvIR. GRIESINGER: \Ie are working on several this year, 
v;e will get av/ay from that number. 

MR. OLIVER: Could the hon. Minister (Mr. Griesinger) 
trace to the House the developments that take place after a 
report on one of these watersheds is completed? VJhat do you 
do next as a Department, or do you just let the report sit 
there *? Wiat is the procedure? 

MR. GRIESINGER: No, Mr. Chairman, after the report 
is presented by the Authorities then it is entirely up to the 
■Authority to bring into us the scheme that they may desire 
to have started first. The report itself may contarn 20 or 
30 different ideas to cover the whole watershed, of course, 



Marcli 2g, 1951. 



D-10 

they cannot all be carried out at one time. Vi/hatever the 
authority thinks is most important, they bring the scheme to us 
and after we get it it may be approved by several departments 
that are involved, then we have it processed through to the 
federal authorities to see if v/e can interested them in the 37i 
per cent, 

M. OLIVER: Is the hon. Minister (Fir. Griesinger) of 
the opinion that we should expect the federal government to 
participate in all these schemes? My understanding, at least 
my thinking along these lines has been tliat we should properly 
expect the federal government to participate as a unit in the 
development of large-so.le undertakings like the Fanshaw dam 
and the Luther marsh dam and those big dams, but v;hen it comes 
to what one may say the flood work and developing these plans 

♦ 

within the province, surely there is a line of demarcation 
somewhere beyond which we are not going to ask the Dominion 
government to participate. Surely there is a place v\;here we 
take the responsibility of the province in initiating and fur- 
thering these schemes. 

MR. GRIESINGER: Mr. Chairman, I might say in the 
broadest sense of conservation, we have had a number of dis- 
cussions with the hon. Mr.- Winters who is just as much in- 
terested in conservation as we are ourselves, and they have a 
Bill known as Bill No. 62 which may help them to assist on 
the authorities end of this, the reforesting end of this, and 
the conservation schemes. I appreciate that they have no 
comparable Bill to ours, but we have interested them, as the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) has said, on certain flood 
control measures and I believe there is a possibility that 



sonetJclnis can be vorked r-rt frr rr " " r^rataLom aBd refoareslta.'tlaBii. 

MR. OLIfSl: Uha: and tMics lite tboit, 

you do noti e3q>ec1; then " : 

ME. GEHSHPGE?: '!': . Z -rr-_lc n?* -;■.■_:'_■: rr . 

HE. McBUK: Mr. GhaifE^r . : ; 1 1 ; f r.^ 

the hon. Prine Mnister (Mr. Frcst z::^- .. i. ; z g^ts 

scope 

tMiigs done, now, like =12 hi- -vr^r-rir— -r-.-t : , : ^i^ Ifee/ ©T 
conservation, a lot of -.ti ire r.;: i^ ;: : eci^s, imt t re 
iarportant in their field. Is it the a that y: - ___ 

not proceed with then unless Ottawa participates in then? 
MR. FROST: Gh, no, no. 

HR. HcB^IHG: On the other hand, when he spoke about 

"aSiicii 
getting things done, lAtat about the Conestoga daa,/it has been 

waiting Tor sone tine; ire they getting it dox»? 

MR. (%IESING£R: I ad^t say as ?ar as the C<aiestQgia 
dan is concerned, it is nc- ' 5 rf ?tt " r 

not received a reply yet whether they ar; 1 : oE:f- in contri- 
buting their 375 per cent. 

ME. McSiHiG: I quiite appreciate that, 

MR. GRIESINGER: 1 might say in answer to your other 
questions, that there is nothing to prevent an Authority froa 
going ahead on i^s own with recreational or park facilities 
if they care to do it. \Aien we build up a report for them, 
it does not necessarily follow the complete report, and what 
we liave suggested therein, that it is expected that the govern- 
ment would stop it. They are at liberty to ahead as an Authfrity 
to create perks of their own if they care to, 

MR. HcEl/ING: Well then, one further point on that, 
the Fanshaw dam wovild not go ahead unless Ottawa was partici- 
I)ating, it was not a caae of this government getting it done 



March 2g, 1951. 



D-12 

it was dependent somewhat on Ottawa the same as Conestoga which 
is not going ahead because Ottawa is not prepared so it does 
not entirely rest on a matter of this government getting things 
done. Now, the other point — 

M. GRIESINGER: It must be appreciated at the present 
time, I must be perfectly frank in saying that Ottav/a at the 
present time is involved in a defence programme and I doubt 
very much whether we can expect assistance for the Valley 
authorities , For the time being, I do not think they coiild 
possibly do it under the circumstances they are vjorking under, but 
we have had any number of conferences with the hon. Mr. Winters 
and I am happy to say to this House that he has been most co- 
operative and he is quite willing to do everything he possibly 
can because he conservation-minded himself and I am quite sure 
if we can get by the defence programme we will get 100 per cent 
co-operation from his department. 

MR. McElJING: Well, further than that, where do we draw 
the line that the province can proceed on its own? Now, here 
is a series of small '^ams and a lot of other small projects, 
are we going to wait for Ottawa or is other work going to hold 
them up and we might just as well put them in a pigeon hole, 

M. FROST: Which dams are you talking about? 

Mi. McEWING: The wee dams in this conservation report, 
a series of small dams to stop erosion, 

M. PORTER: Can you not build them yourself? 

MR. McElJING: Running off the water in different areas, 
there are a good number of things -- 

MR. DUNBAR: Let the beavers fell the trees. 

MR. MdEUING: That is the answer, is it? 



D-13 

.MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods) : Mr. Chairman, I have been 
trying i9)r^^Ti^^^t®^^ minutes but the assistant clerk hides me 
and the chairman cannot see me. Last year, Mr, Chairman, when 
thf hon. Minister's (Mr. Griesinger) estimates were before the 
House, I proposed to him that his department might very well 
undertake the -- keep those people quiet will you? The hon. 
Minister (Mr. Griesinger) is trying to listen to me and the hon. 
Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) is creating a disturbance. 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. KENNEDY: I am sorry, go on. 

MR. l^acLEOD; I will start all over again. V.Tien the 
hon. Minister's (Mr. Griesinger) estimates were before the 
House last year I suggested that his Department might very 
assume responsibility for conducting an intensive survey of 
housing needs of the province of Ontario^ 

(TAKE "E " FOLLO'WS) 



E-1 



MR. A. A. MACLEOD (Bellwoods) : Now, seven or eight 
years ago this government, under another Premier, gave 
certain undertakings which respect to housing, which were 
based upon information available to the government at that 
time, We were promised that an Ontario Housing Com- 

mission was going to be set up, charged with the responsi- 
bility of developing a great housing program in this pro- 
vince. 

Actually very little has been done in seven years. 
It is true that a lot of homes have been built in Ontario 
since 1943, but relatively few of them have been built 
as the result of any serious intervention on the jart of 
this government, i venture to say that a careful survey 

of the situation throughout the province of Ontario would 
reveal that tons of thousands of people in this province of 
ours are living in so-called homes v>/hich are not fit for 
human habitation. I can think of many towns and cities of 
Ontario where people are living in degradation and misery. 
However, I do think it is rather important that we should 
have some very precise information on this question, and 
I, therefore, suggest to the hon. Minister (Mr, Griesinjitr) 
that his department might undertake, in the year 1951, 
the task which was undertaken by the Curtis Commission 
some 10 years ago, which gave us a :faJjrIly clear picture 
/ as to what the housing needs of Canada were 

during that period, 

I have suggested a number of times in the last few 
years that this province needs a housing program which would 
call for the erection of about E5,000 low-rental homes per 
year for the next five years, I think we need 125,000 



March 28th, 1951. 

E-2 

low-rental, subsidized units in this province. But I 
think it would be much better if the Department itself 
were to look closely into this situation, and see whether 
even that figure is adequate. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, we have been told many times by 
the present hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) and his 
predecessor, that while the Progressive Conservative Govern- 
ment, which has held office since 1944, is not honoring 
their pledge to set up an Ontario Housing C&mmission, 
they have gone one better than that, and have given . • ■■ : 
in its place an Ontario Department of Planning and 
Development in lieu of the promised Housing Commission. 

Since one of his main functions is to concern 
yourself with the housing problem in the province of Ontario, 
I suggest it was quite proper for the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Griesinger) to accept the proposal I made a year ago, and 
now one year later, I would like to enquire as to the 
results of that promised survey. Perhaps the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Griesinger) could bring us up to date on 
that. He promised to do that. He has had a year to do 
it, Vi/hat has he to tell the House? 

im. GRIESINGER: I recall distinctly the hon. member 
(Mr. MacLeod) making that request, and shortly after 
that we did have a survey made through ourselves and the 
Central Mortgage Housing Corporation, I cannot give you 
the exact situation or the figures, as to what the 
situation was at that time, but I aia positive our figures 
are quite fairly well up to date, because we are in 
touch with the Central Mortgage Housing Corporation 
practically every 



-XCii tiJ Uil_ 



E-3 

day in the week. Possibly we could give some information 
to the hon. member (Mr, MacLeod) later, 

MR. MACLEOD: Could you answer this question? Could 
you give me some idea of how many housing units have been 
built in Ontario since you introduced ;y;:our' amendment in the 
House a year ago? How many units have teen built under this 
so-called low-cost housing Bill. 

MR. GRIESINGER: By the government itself? 

MR, MACLEOD: YeSn How many homes have been built 
under the provisions of the amendment passed a year ago? 

MR, GRIESINGER: It is quite true we did not build 
any houses for our own account, but under the provisions of 
the Act, and with the Central Mortgage Housing Corporation, 
I would say, around about 25,000 or 30,000, 

MR. MACLEOD: 30,000 new homes were built under the 
terms of the amendment? 

AN hon, MEMBER: That is ridiculous o 

MR. FROST: No, under the agreement as a whole. 
The figures are in the Budget. 

MR. MACLEOD: I would like to refresh the hon. Minister's 
(Mr, Griesinger) memory. I have here the Press Report on 
the amendment introduced by him a year ago, and it says: 
" Griesinger introduces low-cost housing 
Bille First effective step toward a low- 
cost, government sponsored , housing program 
in Ontario, was taken in the Legislature 
yesterday," 

MR. FROST: V/hose words are those? 

MR. MACLEOD: From The Globe and Mail, February 1950. 
Certainly the government did not object to having its legislation 



MaroJfi abtli,190l 

reported in that way. -"This was the first step," — 

MR. FROST: May I give the hon. member (Mr, MacLeod) 
these figures? 

MR. MACLEOD: Let me read this again. 

"The first effective step toward a low- 
cost, government sponsored, housing 
program in Ontario, was taken in the 
Legislature today," 
If the first effective steps were taken a year ago, 
what has the hon. Minister (Mr, Griesinger) to report by 
way of accomplishment since then? 

MR. FROST: This is from the Budget." The housing 
construction in Ontario reached an unprecedented level in 
1950". 

MR. MACLEOD: You have been there since 1944. 
MR, FROST: Of an estimated 33,163 dwelling units 
completed during the year, 31,633 were new units, and 
approximately 1,500 by way of housing conversion, and a 
total of 27,518 dwelling units v/ere still under cons- 
truction at the end of the year. That was because of the 
material shortages, and the Federal government intervened 
with their restrictions in connection vath mortgage ad- 
vances, and I was interested to get some figures the other 
day to show that housing completions continued to mount 
in the province of Ontario. Last year, mark you, nearly 
34,000 nevi/ housing units, in this province, which is a 
tremendous thing, 

MR. MACLEOD: How many of those units would you 
say belong In the category of "low-cost homes? 

MR. FROST: That depends, of course, in many cases — 
in fact, in all cases -- upon municipal agreements. As a 



E-5 



matter of fact, we have had virtually no request other than 
for the land assembly deals in the province of Ontario. 
The municipalities apparently feel — and I think with 
justification — that v^here new housing is erected, it 
lessens the pressure on other types of housing, and the 
needs are pretty satisfactorily taken care of now by the 
progress which has been made in the last year. If we can 
maintain that type of progress in the years to come, we will 
make very substantial progress indeed. 

If we are faced with material restrictions, and cannot 
build that n-umber,we, in Canada, make it ourselves into dif- 
ficulty. But I believe we are limited by the amount of material 
available, which is something, as far as we are concerned in 
the province of Ontario, which we cannot control. V/e are 
dependent upon Federal control. 

MR. Eij.\/[0N xIkKK (Dovercourt) : Mr. Chairman, perhaps 
the hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Frost) v;as not available, vi/hen 
I wrote to the houc Minister of Plaining and Development (Mr, 
Griesinger) on this point, on December 20th, 1£50, and posed 
to him a number of questions v;hich are essentially the same 
as those still on the Order Paper, and have been sinee February 
2nd, in my name, to which the hon. Minister (B/Ir, Griesinger) 
has given no reply, although he did reply to my letter on 
January 18th, 1951. The questions I posed to the hon. Minister 
(Mr, Griesinger) were as follows: 

In regard to Chapter 28 of the Statutes of 1950, 
amending the Housing Development Act, 1948, I would appreciate 
it if you would provide me with the following information: 
(1) How many projects have been undertaken for the 



March 28th, 1951 



E-.6 

acquisition and development of land, and where 
are these projects located? I/hat has been the 
total amount of money advanced for these projects 
by (a) thefederal government, (b) the provincial 
government and (c) the municipalities ? 
Hov; many housing units have been started and how 
many have been completed on the land acquired 
and developed under theise projects? 
How many of these housing units have been (or 
are being) built by (a) government agencies, 
(b) private builders? 

How many of them are for sale and how many for 
rent, and what has been the average selling 
price of the houses for sale and what is the 
average rental of those being rented? 
(8) How many projects have been undertaken for 

the construction of houses for sale, and where 

are these projects located? 

What has been the total amount of money advanced 

for these projects by (a) the federal government, 

(b) the provincial government, and (c) the 

municipalities? 

How many housing units have been started on these 

projects, how many have been completed and what 

has been the average selling price of the completed 

unit s? 

Has there been any subsidization of the units 

constructed in any of these projects, and if so, 

what has been the average subsidy per housing 

unit? 



March 28th, 1951 



E-7 

(3) Hew many projects have been undertaken for the 
construction of houses for rent, and where 
are these projects located? 

V/hat has been the total amount of money advanced 
for these projects by (a) the federal govern- 
ment, (b) the provincial government, and (c) the 
municipalities? 

How many housing units have been started in 
these porjects, how many have been completed 
and vi'hat is the average rental of the completed 
unit s? 

Has there been any subsidization of the rents^ 
and if so, what is the average subsidy per housing 
unit per year? 

I would appreciate learning from you whether you 
believe the above information can be given to me." 
To my letter I recei ed a reply from the hon. 
Minister (Mr. f^rlesinger) dated January 18th, 1951. I 
will put both letters completely on the record so there 
will be no suggestion I am reading out of the context. 
The hon. Minister (Mr. Griesinger) reads as follows: 

"This will acknowledge your letter of the 20th 
of December 1950. 

In respect of land assembly projects, agree- 
ments have been entered into with the cities 
of V/indsor, London, Kingston, Ottav>/a and St. Thomas, 
These involve, all told about 650 acres of land 
and something in the order of 3000 lots will be 
made available to builders as a result thereof. 
At the present time we are gotiating agreements 



March 28th, 1951 



E-8 

with the Tovm of Matheson and the Improve- 
ment District of Atikokan under which 
approximately another 300 serviced lots will 
be made available. As yet no lots have been 
offered for sale in any of these projects by 
reason of the fact that in most instances the 
services have yet to be installed. The lots 
w5.11 all be sold to builders or private 

individuals for the erection of houses there- 
on." 
They had not even gotten around to offering lots 
for sale. In some instances the surveys were not being 
completed, and in all instances, the services have yet to 
be installed. 

Then the letter goes on: 
" In respect of construction of houses 
for sale if, as I presume you mean the 
erection of houses for sale by the Partners 
on direct account, no such projects have as 
yet been undertakene 

In respect of construction of houses for 
rent, no such projects have been requested 
hy municipalities nor have any projects been 
undertaken." 
That was the letter, signed by the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Griesinger) on January 18th, 1951. 

As you will notice, I asked him how many projects 
had been undertaken for the construction of houses for sale, 
and in his reply he said "I presume you mean the erection 
of houses for sale by the partners on direct account — 



iii~ 



meaning the two governments — and he has said that 
"No said projects have as yet been undertaken" and, 
as the hon. members will notice, the same answer was 
given in respect to projects for rent, so it is apparent 
that the houses vi;hich were built in the last year were 
not built on account of the legislation passed a year 
ago. 

MR. FROST: Certainly they were. 

MR. Pi^iRK: It was the regular construction going on 
by private builders, anyway, and all of those pious asser- 
tions, and all the boasting words, mean nothing \iiiatsoe- 
ver. 

MR. FROST: As usual, the hon. member (Mr. Park) 
is completely astray. 

MR. PARK: If I am astray, I have been led astray 
by the correspondence vjith the Department of Planning and 
Development,Pf::''-.-.i-c ifthe hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 
had been available at that time, the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Griesinger) would not have written that kind of a letter. 

MR. FR(^T: The hon. member (Mr. Park) had better 
put his dynamite on the table. Oh, I see he is going to 
put it on Hansard, 

Mr, Chairman, the fact is that the hon. member 
for Doverdiourt (Mr. Park) can talk a greater amount of 
nonsense in a short time — perhaps I should not say that, 
because he never makes any short statements — but it 
is nonsense to the greatest degree. 

The fact is that this province, in 1948, in order 
to assist in the erection of houses, brought in the 
second mortgage scheme which at that time the hon. member 



'-r (• 



March 28th, 1951 



1-10 

for Doverco;irt (Mr, Park), talked about mortgages on 
mortgages, and said it vms going to accomplish nothing. 
The fact is, it was good legislation, and it was soon 
after adopted by the Federal Government, and as a result, 
last year, in 1950 — 



(TAKE "F" FOLLOV/S) 



F-1 

As a result, last year, in 1950 — and I want the learned 
member for Dovercourt (Mr. Park) to underline this — the 
greatest number of houses in all the history of the province 
of Ontario were built, 33,000 housing units. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Just about half enough. 

MR. FROST: The fact is that so many houses were 
erected here in the province of Ontario that there was not 
enough material in Canada to keep up with it. The people in 
Ottawa had to step in to curtail the amount of house building 
here in the province of Ontario. 

I will say Ontario is now ahead of all the provinces 
— your province of Saskatchewan and all the rest cf them 

rolled in together. This old province of Ontario is now 

of 
the head of any/them. It is true that some of the municipa- 
lities steer away from what the hon. member for Dovercourt 
(Mr. Park) calls "low-cost housing". I cannot blame any 
municipality, in the main, for doing that. I think they are 
better 6f f in the development of their communities to keep on 
with better-class housing. That is what they are getting at 
the present time. In the city of Toronto, of course, you 
have a great problem. It arcse, .ht course, by reason of the 
very muddled municiapl system you have in this community, 
upon which I do not think I would want to comment. I cbhink 
it is working out in a democratic way. Last year some of 
the hon. members on the opppsite side of this House talked 
about "big stick" methods. I remember the hon. member for 
St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) talked about the iron hand, about 
unification and amalgamation of this district. Those things 
have not come about. The people are working out solutions 

to their differences. Yov'. ire going to get here in this 

a 
community by ordinary methods/well -planned community in this 



March 28, 1951, 



F-2 

area which v/ill be a real source of satisfaction, not only to 
the people of this community hut to the people of the province 
of Ontario. I would say to the hon. member for Dover ecu rt 
(Mr. Park) that he ought to be proud of the great plans this 
province is making in this country. 

im. PARK: Does the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 
remember the speech he made last year about the houses with 
no down payments, and does the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 
remember the speech the hon. Minister of Planning and Develop- 
ment (Mr. Griesinger) made about 10 per cent down payments 
at $580.? Those speeches were made in this House last year 
in persuading this House that it should give you authority 
you askcid '^^ "^endments to the Housing Act a year ago. The 
fact of the matter is that you have done not a siggle thing 
about it. The hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) boasts about 
the number of houses which hage been built. To take care of 
the natural increase in our population v;e should have built 
at least 20,000 houses more than the number of which the hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) speaks. ",Jhat the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) is boasting about is not a success, but 
is a lack of success. The hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) is 
telling us that because his government failed by 20,000 
houses last year to meet the needs of the people it Ontario 
we should be happy and satisfied. It is not satisfactory 
and I think the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) knows it. 

As a matter of f act , -vDciit'l-i' reEtecrt-. tti5 rKa" no'st inipc-rtfi-nt': thiirig; 
4:;. tv-ro 'bulicin?;^ vf h-ou.9:gS:v;5; irm'i ^Irter-anE: .SUsaii .1 .xu 
where the government is timorous beyond all words. That is the 
■question of financing the building of homes, which is the 
major cost in home building. The major cost ir =':he building 



■-f-l 



March 28th, 1951. 

F-3 
and construction of a house is the financing of the construc- 
tion of it. A )10,000. r-iortca^e carried over a period of 
tv;enty years, even at the National Housing rate, for 4|- per 
cent, will cost ")14,500 on that mortgage. That is the 
highest single cost item in the construction of homes. It 
is precisely at that point that the government has failed 
to enter the housing field, 

V'.'e are not going to tackle this q[uestion of housing 
until the Province of Ontario is prepared to establish a 
Public flousing Authority and "o out and construct houses. 

S0:.3 E07. r2;i:B'-:;R3: Hear, hear. 

I JR. PAJRH: "e should borrow money on the credit of 
this province at the lo^.-'er interest rates, that this 
province can, because it is such a tremendously po\."erful 
province, in order to finance house construction. On that 
basis, v;e could, if \;e \.'anted to build houses and make 
them available to the people at rentals of ,!:40.00 over a 
thirty year period, ",'e could build ,,10,000 houses with- 
out any subsidy from the province of Ontario. ^.7e can 
build lov\; cost housing without "oing into the subsidy 
field , provided the government is prepared to take the 
initiative and have the imagination to meet the situation. 
Up to now, the government has been afraid, to tread on the 
toes of those who , .ake money out of financing home construction. 
That Is one place Y,'here the government is afraid to step on toes, 

LIR. aRSISi:''"-"JR: That is not a fact. 

LIR. PARKS: If it were not the government would be 
prepared to set up a public housin- authority on that basis. 
The Sate 



F-4 

of New York can borrow money for 2% and 2^^ for 

short term , . „ , . „ ,,, ,r , 

loans. Surely if the City of New York can 

borrow money on that basis, the province of Ontario 

could do as well or nearly as wellj V'e would be 

able to make homes available to nearly all people 

at reasonable rentals which they could pay over a 

long period of time. The government has lacked both 

the imagination to take that step, and I think the 

willingness — 

MR. FROST: Would the hon. member for 
Dover court (Mr. Park) give me the example of any 
government or city in Canada which has gone as far 
as the province of Ontario has in this type of 
construction? 

MR. PARK: The Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) knows very well that the housing situation 
is probably more critical in industrial areas of 
Ontario than in any other part of Canada. Surely 
the Hon. Prime Minister is not trying to make a 
comparison between Alberta, Saskatchewan and the 
Mar i times. 

MR. PORTER: V/e hear a lot of other compari- 
sons.. In Montreal they have a terrific problem. 

MR. PARKS: Their problems are minor, com- 
pared to the province of Ontario, Let the Hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) listen. He has taken a couple 
of leafs this Session out of American books. V/e got 
the 2qual pay Bill and we got the F.IC.P.bill. 

MR. FROST: And I may say that the hon. member 



Mar. 26 



F-5 

for Dovercourt (Mr. Park) griimbled about both of 
them. There has not been one bill the government 
has introduced this year the hon. member for 
Dovercourt (Mr. Park) has not grumbled about. He 
is grimibling now, 

MR. PAR?:: This is one subject about v/hich 
I think everyone in this province would agree I have 
ever " reason to grumble. 

SOME RON. I-iETIBi^RS : Hear, hear. 

MR. DUNBaK: Look around and get the trained 
seals clapping their hands, 

MR. PARK: I mentioned the New York State 
Housing authority. In Detroit there arc ITousing 
Authorities working. In very many parts of the 
industrial areas of the United States public Bousing 
authorities have been established. In Great 
Britain p'ublic Housing Authorities have been estab- 
lished. There are all kinds of precedents for 
undertaking this kind of effort. The fact of the 
matter is that this government has failed to take 
that action, it has failed, as I say, for tv;o 
reasons., ' , one that it lacks the imagination 
to give the necessary leadership in the matter, and, 
two — and I think the more important of the two 
reasons — is that some of the financial interests 
are most anxious the government stays out of the 
housing field, and this government is, therefore, 
more interested in pleasing them than sewing]; public need 

MR. GRIESINGER: V/e have had a number of re- 



i-i<-l.l" ,<i<-> 



F-6 

quests from different municipalities for^ low cost 
houses, and we have offered them practically the 
same kind of proposition they have in the United 
States and British Columbia — the federal government 
75^> the provincial government 12^^, and the munici- 
pality 125^. We have even got it worked out to the 
point where we can tell them how much rent it will 
cost and how much will have to be subsidized; how 
much they would have to assume themselves; but we 
have not been asked by any of those municipalities 
since they first came in to make them a rental 
proposition. ■'^hey have all accepted the Land Assembly 
Deal. Surely the hon. members of the Opposition are 
willing to give this government at least just a little 
bit of credit. 

hR. FROST: Oh, no; not them. 

KR. GREISINGfiR: Cn November 8 we have committed 
ourselves to spend approximately ^^21, 000, 000. You 
take the provinces in the whole of the Dominion of 
Canada at the present time, and none of them has 
spent anyiArhere near that as a group, as a whole. 

Let me point out, v/e support close to 
itpl3,000,000 in second mortgages, v;hich brought about 
the building of 15,000 homes. I think we deserve a 
little bit of credit there. 

¥e gave an outright grant of sA>275>000 for 
land and services, which we will never get back — 
and which we do not want back. 

In Regent Park v/e have committed ourselves 
to 1,062 units which will cost the province of Ontario 



F-7 

and, therefore, the taxpayers of Ontario, iipl,062,000. 

In addition to that under Land assembly Deal 
last year vie have committed o\ir selves to vl, 000, 000. 
We expect the same thii;g this year on Land Assembly 
Deal. 

If the municipality wants it and are willing 
to pay their share, we are quite willing to go into 
it. I think we deserve at least a little bit of credit 
there. 

It is easy enough to say "Build t^^7enty or 
twenty-five thousand homes." I appreciate maybe chat 
is what is needed, but under present conditions a 
house costs ^^9,000. It is going to cost ^275,000,000 
to start with. 

At the present time, and I have discussed 
this with authorities in Ottawa, we know they have 
already said there will have to be a certain amount 
of defence housing in possibly Toronto, Hamilton, 
Ottawa and several other places. Can we impose anything on 
top of that, when the Hon. Mr. Howe has already made 
the statement, "Unless you know where you are going 
to get your material, do not start buildin|;:7" They 
are going to take that material for defence housing. 
I do not know whether v>re would be safe in imposing 
any real low rental housing on the province of Ontario 
at the present time. 

Surely we deserve a little bit of credit 
for the money v/e have already spent, 

MR. FROST: In Ontario we are far in the lead 
of every province in the Dominion of Canada. Do not 



Mar.2S 



be so pessimistic. Cheer up, 

MR. A. JOHNSTON (Parrie Sound): Mr. 
Speaker — 

MR. JOLLKJ'FE: Now we are going to hear from 
Parry Sound. 

MR. JOHNSTON (Parry Sound): I would 

like to bring to the attention of the House the serious 
situation which exists in my district. I hear the hon. 
members talking about twenty thousand and fifty 
thousand houses and I can assure them none were built 
in Parry Sound. 

(Take G follows.) 



March S8th, 1951. 



G-1 

The insurance companies who are lending money -- and I 
understand with the blessing of the National Housing — have 
in the last four years refused to lend mortages in the smaller 
tovittis and villages. 

IvIR. JOLLIFFE: That is right. 

MR. JOHNSTON: Je have tried and tried -- 

im. PARK: And your friend will do nothing for you, 
over here. 

lliR. J"OHNFW,^;:j v/ell, I am hoping my hon. friends in 
the centre over here may help. 

SOlffi hon. iiiEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. JOHNSTON: V/e have tried through National Housing, 
Central Mortgage Cgrp oration, and all of the insurance com- 
panies to obtain first mortgages in towns such as Burk's Falls, 
Powassan, South River -- towns about 1500 to 2000 people — 
and their only reply has been that they have not offices set 
up to provide the administration of loaning this money. 

Now we feel that since they are always able to set 
up offices to collect their insurance premiums, they should 
return the favour by spending a little money and helping the • 
small communities to build themselves up. How are we going 
to get industries in these towns if we cannot supply houses? 

MR. PARK: Public housing is your only answer. 

MR. . v/ALTERS (Bracondale ) : Better move over 
here. 

lliR. FROST: All this talk is not building any houses, 

MR. JOHNSTON: I think the fault lies directly with 
the National Housing Act, because they guarantee that these 
insurance companies will not lose money, at least that is my 
interpretation of it. Therefore, if the insurance companies 



March 28th, 1951. 



&-2 

are not going to lose any money, why will they not provide us 
with first mortgages. I do not understand. Perhaps someone 
has the answer, and I feel that I should bring it to the 
attention of the House. 

SOIiEE hon. MET.IBERS: Hear, hear. 
Iffi. R. THORNBERRY (Hamilton Centre): I think the 
government is a little bit hard pressed to excuse point No. 8 
of the notorious 22 points made in 1943. 
SOr/E hon. 1EMB2RS: Oh, oh. 

MR. THORNBERRY: "To set up an Ontario Housing Commi- 
ssion for the purpose of wiping out slums". 

HDN. G. H. DUiffiAR (Minister of Municipal Affairs): 
That is the one you went out on — the 22 points. 
im. THORMBERPiY: And came back in. 
MR. DUNBAR: Only been back a short time. 
im. THORNBERRY: The hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 
does a very good job of trying to explain it away. I think 
instead of being a lawyer he should have been a Fuller Brush 
salesman. 

Sa/DE hon. l^EMBSRS: Oh, oh. 

MR. THORNBERRY: Because there seems to be a con- 
certed effort not only on the part of the spokesmen of the 
government but also of the people that support them out- 
side, principally the press, to gloss over their failure 
in supplying houses for the people who need them. Only 
last year, on March 7th, I quote one heading: 
"No down payment — " 
MR. FROST: Might I ask my hon. friend the member 
for Hamilton Centre (Mr. Thornberry), if his city of Hamilton 



G-3 



has approached us to ask us for any low- cost housing or a|iy 
government subsidized housing. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Let us hear this first. 

MR. THORNBERRY: ¥ix. Chairman, I do not think that is 
particularly relevant. 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. THORNBERRY: After all, the people send me here 
to tell you about it, and after all this is the place where 
action should be initiated. The local paper there said on 
March 7, 1950: 

"No down payment needed in joint housing scheme. 
Premier Erost describes Dominion-Provincial dwelling erections 
planned". 

I.ffi. FROST: We are quite prepared to do this, we have 
offered to all the municipalities to pay 87 g- per cent of the 
cost, between ourselves and the federal government; now, we 
are looking for some takers. You go home and sell the propo- 
sition over there. 

MR. THORNBERF:^* It might be all well r.i.: good to 
make this kind of an arrangement and let them lie there, but 
still the hon. Minister (Mr. Griesinger) cannot tell this 
House how many homes have been built under that arrangement. 
The only thing that he can do is point to millions of dollars 
that have been loaned out in second mortages. I suggest 
again — I did so last year — that that did not build a 
single house, and if we got to grips with the real problem, 
we could perhaps be in a position to initiate some action. 
The fact of the matter is that those houses built last year, 
those 33,000 houses would have been built in any case wLtti 



March 28th, 1951, 



or without the second mortagge. 

SCME hon. IvIEMBERS: Oh, no. 

MR. THORNBERRY: ;'ath or without any financial 
assistance, and the only difference it would have made ia 
that the type of people eligible to qualify for them — 
that made a difference, that in itself created a problem 
because it made more competition, which forced prices up. 
And only 34 per cent of the materials spent in contruetion 

work in Ontario went into housing. The rest went into 
bowling alleys, cocktail bars, service stations, and enter- 
prises of that nature, and I think that housing should have 
had some considerable priority. 

Now in Hamilton, which the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) enquires about, I Kiv.rt>-i speaking to the head of the 
Central Mortgage and Housing Co3?p oration just the other day, 
and he told me that there are 1,000 veterans vi/ho registered 
for vacancies in wartime housing. 

M hon. MEt/BER: v,Oiy are they selling them then? 

MR. THORNBERRY: That does not mean anything. The 
fact remains there are a thousand veterans registered who 
are without homes, living anywhere they can get. And that 
does not tell the whole story, because every three months 
a questionnaire is sent out to these veterans which they 
have to fill in and return in order to keep their name on 
the list. As happens very often, a number of them do not 
return them, so they are immediately cut off, and it would 
appear therefore we would be safe in assuming there are 
lEOO to 1500 veterans. If we add to that the number of 
other people who are waiting for homes, we get a very 
impressive figure. So what the governijient has to do is 
to get right down to the root of the situation in the 



March 28,1951. 

G-5 

housing need by dealing with the material shortage which the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) mentioned. 

Vtoat has the govornment done to relieve the material 
shortage? We have lumber in our northiSnds, we have clay to 
make bricks, and I do not think I am violating any confidence 
of the hon. Ivlinister of Reform Institutions (Mr. Foote) when 
he mentioned in private con:fersation that a brickyard was 
closed in his vicinity because it could not economically 
operate. That is one particular position where the provin- 
cial government whuld step in and take over that brickyard, 
as they have done in Saskatchevi?.an. The Saskatchewan govern- 
ment loses a few dollars on the operations — 

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney -General ) : They have got a 
sales tax out there. 

MR. THORNBERRY: ~ but the important thing is, Mr. 
Chairman, that is produces millions of bricks which go into 
housing. 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Hearif hear. 

MR. THORNBERRY: That was important, and if we could 
do that in Ontario we would not have to go to Ohio, would not 
have to be carting bricks over here from Ohio, li/ith the 
shortage of plumbing material, lumber and brick, the govern- 
ment is ' not concern ^^•Yi/hy does it not set up Grown corpora- 
tions? We could finance those Crown corporations, we could 
raise the corporation tax, a little additional capital gain 
tax, and finance those Crown corporations to provide more 
bricks. And if we could provide the material, we will find 
that the people will be able to build their homes. After 
all, the 30,000 homes that were built, were built in spite 



G-6 

of the legislation, not because of the legislation. 

SCME hon. I'lEMBERS: Hear, hear. 

MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): Mr. Chairman, I wonder 
if the hon. Prime Alinister (Mr. Frost) or the hon. Minister 
of Planning and Development (Mr. Griesinger) would care to 
comment on this short statement made by the new leader of 
the Liberal party of the province of Ontario? 

SOME hon. IvrnH'IBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. MacLEOD: A statement bearing on this question. 

MR. PORTER: ^^Vho is that? Vi/hat is his name? 

MR. MacLEOD: I will give you his name in a moment. 
I am quoting from the Toronto Daily Star. 

SOFiE ^on. ME]\/[BER: mat's that? 

MR. MacLEOD: "V/alter Thompson, Ontario Liberal Leader, 

said last night that during the past eight years 

the Frost government had permitted to be ground 

enough 
into pulp and shipped to the United States/sav;/ 

logs to have built 600,000 working men's homes". 

SOME hon. MMIBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. MacLEOD: I'Vhat do you have to say about that? 

im. FROST: Eyewash. I think .'/alter had better 
stick to his job down in Ottawa for awhile. 

MR. PORTER: He is on a part-time job, so you nfeht 
expect something like that. 

MR. MacLEOD: That is a lot of homes ~ 600,000. 

MR. i,¥. DENNISON (St- David): Mr. Chairman, I think 
that last year the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) told 
this House, and the hon. Minister of Planning and Develop- 
ment (Griesinger) told this House that they had an entirely 
new plan up their sleeve, something entirely different from 
the promises of the 22 points. They had a new plan of 



March 28, 1951. 

G-7. 

constructing houses which wmld result in a great reduction 
in the cost and that plan which had been outlined to them 
by someone who at the time had convinced them it was prac- 
tical and that it could be put into operation that plan, 
whatever it was, was a plan under which these houses costing 
$5,800. were going to bo built, with no down payment, or 
else with a very small 10 per cent down payment. 

MR. GRIESINGER: Can you show me that? 

im. DENIALS ON: Yes. 

MR. GRIESINGER: I would like to see it. 

MR. DENlvIISON: Then, llr. Minister (Mr. Grieslnger) 
in the Throne Speech Debate, you told us that that plan had 
fallen through, that particular plan you had hoped for last 
year had fallen through. 

MR. GRIESINGER : viOiat plan are you referring to? 

MR. DENl^IISON: I do not know, but ~ 

MR. GRIESINGER: Then what are you talking about? 

SOME hon. FiEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. DENNISON: No, no, Mr. Minister (Mr. Griesinger) 
you can surely remember your speeches and the hon. Prime 
Minister 's (Mr. Frost) speeches last year. 

MR. GRIESINGER: I remember my speeches, but I do 
not recollect what you are talking about. 

MR. DENIIISON: Theji you will remember the speech 
you made this Session on the Throne Speech, in which I 
said to you: "Then that $5,800. house is out?", and you 
said: "Yes, that plan was impractical", 

MR. GRIESINGER: That is ri^t. 

MR. DENNISON: You said that, you remember that? 
All right, I wonder if you would tell the House something 



March 28 th, 1951. 

G-8 

about this lower-cost method of house building that you had 
in mind, and I am wondering if that should not still be fol- 
lowed up, because I know in the U.S.A. they are initiating all 
M\:"'*'- of lower-cost house building plans by pre fabrication, 
and by a number of other ideas that are reducing the costs. 
I have a clipping here from the Star of November 16, 
1945 in which it states that: 

"In Leaside today a planned kitchen, bathroom, oil 
furnace, utility room Vi/ere pushed through a hole 
in a house wall and set in operation in two hours. 
V/e are told further that the unit is believed by 
leading U.S. and Canadian building engineers and 
leaders in allied fields to be the first of its 
kind built anywhere in the world". 
Now, putting this side by side with the Hon. Minister's 
(Mr. Griesinger) speech last year, I thought that surely we 
were in for some great new ert' of building construction In 
Ontario, where we were going to overhaul some of oiir — 

MR. FROST: So we have done. Last year was the biggest 
building year in the history of Ontario, 33,000 homes. 

MR. DENNISON: But you are using the old-time 
building methods — 

im. PORTER: We get them built. 

MR. DENNISON: — which are expensive and which you 
must admit yourself is resulting not in iiji5, 800. houses but 
$10,000. houses. Now, there is a great difference between 
our standard construction methods and the methods which 
must have been in your mind last year when you made this 
suggestion. I wonder if you should not take the House 
into your confidence and tell us something about that. 



March 28th, 1951. 



G-9 

MR. MacLEOD: If they have any confidence left. 

MR. DENNIS ON: In closing I would like also to point 
out to the hon. Minister (Mr. Griesinger) that the one item 
he has in here for assembly land, last year he had 
|l, 140, 000. in that item, this year he has reduced it to 
|1, 112, 000., so that instead of expanding this House building 
program, such as it is, you are contracting it* 

MR. GRIESINGER: I would not say so; 

lilISS AO^ES ]\/[ACPHAIL(York East): Mr. Chairman, I have 
listened to this afternoon's debate with a great deal of 
interest, and it reminds me of debates I heard 20 years ago. 
In this matter I do not think we should take a political 
attitude, but if we do, both the old parties have to carry 
an equal amount of blame. I sat in the House of Commons 
all through the depression years, when it was beginning and 
the Liberal party was in power and then Vi;hen the Conservative 
party came into power betwean 19S0 and 1939. 

MR. MacLEOD: And then it did go bad. 
MISS MAnpH£TT>: ^d there were the labourers who were idle 
and could not find work, could not find food, could not find 
anything. There was plenty of material and nothing was done 
about it by either of them. Then, Mr. Chairman, they could 
not find money. Then the war came along and there was 

no difficulty about the money, but then they could not get 
the material and could not get the men. 

I think what you need is a good, big delegation of 
women in both the federal and provincial Houses, because they 
would not do things the way they have been done. But the 
men love to talk. 

MR. FROST: Hear, hear. 



March 28, 1951. 



G-10 

IVIR. PORTER: Some men. 
■AN jon. JyJEMBER: Particularly the hon. Premier (Mr. 
Frost). 

MISS MACPHAIL: And every time I hear someone say 
women are the talkers, 1 think of the parliaments I have sat 
in. 

SOME hon. Iffit/IBERS: Hear, hear. 

im. FROST: Mr. Chairman, I will say for my hon. 
friend the member for East York (Miss Macphail), she does not 
waste the time of the House, like some of her colleagues over 
there do, and she nearly always speaks to the point. 

im. JOLLIFFE: That is right. 

MR. FROST: It is a great pleasure to hear. her. 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 

AN hon.AIEMBERS: Send her another bouquet for her 
birthday. 

MR. JOLLIFFE:. And she is not responsible for foolish 
headlines about houses without down payments. 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 
im. T. D. THOLIAS (Ontario): Mr. Chairman, the question 
is, Vi/ere there any houses built under the amending legisla- 
tion of last year? 

]\ffi. MacLEOD: That is the question I asked. 
MR. THOMAS (Ontario): Could the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Griesinger) tell me how many houses were built under the 
legislation of 1949-1950? Not one house. 

MR. G. B. ELLIS (Essex North): Mr. Chairman, if I 
may put a very fair question to the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Griesinger); the fact remains that the greatest sufferers 
as a consequence of the housing shortage are the families, 



.^;t. 



>^.i 



G-11 

large families particularly. Those are the ones where the 
families have been broken up, they can no longer meet the rent 
and even though they could meet the existing rentals, the 
landlords are not prepared to rent to them, so that in the 
final analysis our housing shortage is destroying our family 
life. And that is a serious social problem which everybody 
recognizes, and I am sure this government recognizes, and 
the only solution I know to that problem is the construction 
of subsidized housing for this type of people, families that 
cannot meet our existing rent structure. 



(Page G-12 follows) 



G-12 

So I ask the hon. Kinister (Ilr. Griesinger) in view of 
the fact that when he returned from his trip to England and he 
reviewed the English programme of subsidized housing, his 
first statement was that he v^as very much opposed to subsidized 
housing in any form, I want now to ask the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Griesinger) what is the plan of his government in respect to 
the housing for that type of people? 

im. FROST: May I just ask my hon. friend (Mr. Ellis) a 
question. He is on the council for the city of Windsor and v^re 
have offered the citycf ^./indsor to enter into an a rrangment 
vrith them which would leave them paying the balance of 12^/^ 
only of subsidized housing and rentals. May I ask my hon. friend 
(Mr. Ellis) has the city council of v/Mch he is a member 
advanced any proposal to us to enter into any such deal as that? 

m. ELLIS: Ivi 11 answer the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost). We went into a programme of land assembly with the 
Department last year. 

M. FROST: That is right. How about subsidized housing? 

MR. ELLIS: All right, wait a minute. And v^e have not 
got even the first sewer in yet. I believe the surveys are 
now completed. 

M. GRIESINGER: Remember what your Mayor s£.id to his 
city engineer, that he thought he x^ras lazy, '/as that inthe 
paper or was it not? You are a controller, you should know, 

M. ELLIS: The fact remains we have not even got that 
So acres assembled yet for housing. 

m. FROST: That is right. ',%at is wrcng with the city 
engineer? 

MR. ELLIS: Becau e of the tragic loss of time in getting 
that land assembly completed, we ard now in the process of try- 
ing to find 500 improved lots within the confines of the city 
to come and ask for a subsidized housing oroject. V>/e will be 
here very shortly. 



l 



G-12 

M. FROST: VJell, you have not yet made a proposal to 
us. Have you? 

M. ELLIS: UTiat is the use? 

M. FRO T: Your council or yourself have not made a 
proposal yet to us in connection with subsidized hoasing, 
have you? No. VJell, that is just anexample right there, 

TH^ CHAIRMAN: Order, order. 

m. JOLLIFFE: Mr Chairman— 

im. FROST: That shows you how the CCF operate. They 
do nothing but talk. Theytalk and do nothing. 

m, PORTER: 'fhen they have a ctence, they do nothing. 

r.R. JOLLIFFE: I'-Ir Chairman, has it occurred to the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) or the hon. Minister of 
Planning and Development (Mr. Griesinger) that if there has 
been little response fromthe municipality since last year, 
perhaps their le: islation is no good? 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Has that thought ever crossed their 
minds? 

m. FROST: The hon. member for V/indsor (Mr. Ellis) 
says that he vas so discouraged by the dilatory tactics of 
the city engineer that he vras discouraged from coming to ask 
for subsidized housing. 

SOm hon. rlZir^ilR,. : Oh, oh. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: What we have heard today is that the 
legislation of last year has not brought forth much of a res- 
ponse frora the municipalities. That may be quite true, and 
there may be many reasons, many, many reasons for that dis- 
aopointment. I may say that it is not very surprising to us 
onthis side. V/e did not think last year that all the r)ropa- 
ganda about last year's legislation would bring the results 
which were forecast at the time, the resaults forecast in the 



G-14 

speeches made at the time and even more rashly forecast in 
nev/spaper headlines. Notr it conss to this, th^t if municipal 
cooperation is desirable — and I think it is--if . provincial- 

Federal collaboration is to be desired, then the legislation 
passed last year — and when I say that, I refer not only to the 
legislation passed here, but to legislation passed at Ottawa 
— is not very successul le.g-.islation. 

These things have to be judged by the results. ^Tiat I 
do not understand about the government's attitude is what 

: vjas said more than once regarding the number of houses 
built last year, and I would ask the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) this question. He may take pride in the number that 
were built last year* Does he think they were adequate? Does 
he think that number comes anyvv^here near meeting the need 

of Ontario? VJhat does he propose to do about it? 

M. FROST: Mir .Chairman, it is not what I think, I am 
a realist; the fact is that in Ontario last year we built the 
huge sum of 33,165 houses. 

M. MILLARD: Who is "we"? 
SOME hon. MMBERS: "We"? 

I'IR. FROoT: Just wait a moment. It is n-'t what I think. 
At the end of the year, we had 27,'':';;'^; houses uncompleted, for 
which there was nc5t material. So that as a matter of fact last 
yegr in Ontario, in 1950, v/e built every house we 
could possibly build ir this r^rovince, and we had 27,512 
unfinished at the end of the year. 

m. THCRNBERRY: What are you doing about that? 
m. FROST: V^at is the use of telling me or ask- 

ing me whether I thinJc it is sufficient. The fact is we built 
every possible house we could build. 

ttr. Chairman, I notice it is five o'clock, and hon. 
members will remember what I said last night. ALl of this 



G-15 

talk we have had here this afternoon does n^-^t build any houses, 
it. d oes not complete that 27,512 houses. 

ilR. IHORNBERRY: It shows whose responsibility it is, 
though, to build than. 

m. JOLLIFFE: This year or last year? 

IIR. FROST: How about getting the balance of this 
Estimate through, because we have a pretty busy day tomorrow. 
I vrould like to adjourn the House now, it is five o'clock, but 
I think we could runthrou^ the balance of this now. I think 
my hon. friend the member for St. David (Mr. Dennison) might 
be talked out by this time, and perhaps we could finish this. 

I'-'iR. MacLEOD: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Griesinger), in regard to the Question I directed to him 
a little \Aile ago: Are you prepared now to say that the 
Department of Planning and Development will undertake an inten- 
sive survey of the housing needs of this provinc e v/ithin the 
next two or three months? 

MR. GRIESINGER: '.^e are doing that all the time. I think 
I can give you figures on that, 

MR. MacLEOD: '/Jhy is it you cannot tell us something 
about the precise — 

MR. GRIESINGER: I haven't the figures, though I can 
get them for the hon. member {llr. I^'IacLeod). 

im. THORNBERRY: Mr. Chairman, I think it has been 
clearly established this afternoon that X amount of material 
can only build X number of houses, and that regardless of 
the legislation that has been passed here or elsewhere, there 
would have been no more homes built; so t'^at the problem to 
meet is, what does the Department of Planning and Development 
intend to do about producing more materials? If we get extra 
material we will build extra homes, and there will not be the 
unfinished homes tjie hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) speaks of. 



G-16 

I'R. GRIE3INGER: It does not come under our authority. 

1:R. C. H. MILLARD (York ..^est): .Tiat? 

m. GRIE3INGSR: Ue ha-e nothin;; to dc v/ith building 
materials. 

MR. JCLLIFFE: Have "ou nothing to dowith the saw logs? 

MR. FROST: Have you been talking to Doctor Johnston? 

M. JOLLIFFE: No, but there were saw logs in this 
province long before Johnston and long before all the others 
who have talked about it. 

l"R. THORNBERRY: There has been a material shortage 
since 1945. "hat has the government done about alleviating 
the shortage of material? 

MR. FROST: fhe shortage of material is in steSl, it is 
not lumber, it is in steel and steel products and allied 
products , 

MR. THORNBERRY: There is no doubt there is a shortage 
of steel at this particular stage, but what happened the other 
years? It is quite evident the government does not intend 
under any circumstances to trespass on the field of private 
enterprise in the building of homes, and they are supported 
in thct view by the press who give us misleading statements 
of speeches made by the hon. Prime Minister .{Mr. Frost), like* 

"No down payment needed in joint housing 

scheme . " 
As it appeared. There has also nothing been done about obtain- 
ing building mechanics. 

in. MacLEOD: -Tiat ^aper was it that carried that story? 

MR. THORNBERRY: The Hamilton Spectator, March 7th, 
1950. 

MR. PARK: The Glove & Mail, too. 

m. THCRNBERRY: "No down payment needed ", in large 

headlines. In Great Britan they turn out 90,000 mechanics 



■^::/tor^:. 



'..'"•+: 



G-17 
every three months, and feed them into the building industry. 

m. FROST: They have the greatest building shortage 
in the world there. 

AN hon. MEMBER: Yes, because of the houses destroyed 
during the war. 

MR. MILLARDP The most disgraceful statement I ever 
heard in my life, that of the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost). 

MR. THORNBERRY: But what the House wants to hear, Mr. 
Chairman, from the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) or the 
hon. Minister of Planning and Qevelopment (Mr. griesinger) 
is w1:h t they intend to do to alleviate the material shortage 
in order to build homes, because legislation will not build 
homes if there is no material. That legislation may have 

been of some value during the depression years v;hen there 

was an abundance of material and if oeople could have been 
as listed financially they would have built homes, but it 
won't build homes today, sc vre have to get down toproducing 
more material. inHiat will the Department do about it? 

MR. GRIESINGER: I woiiid like to ask the hon. (gentle- 
man (r/[r. Thornberry) what he would suggest doing? He must 
have a suggestion. 

MR. FRCBT: He would pass the 40-hour week. 

MR. THOMAS (Ontario): Mr. Chairman, the hon. Prime 
Minister (T-lr. Frost) mentioned that he had no request 

from the municipality for these kind of projects. 

MR. FROST: Nothing from Cshawa yet, or Hamilton. 

MR. THORNBERRY: In respect to that, Mir. Chairman 

excuse me — 

SOr-IE hon. members' Oh, oh. 

MR. THORNBERRY: In Hamilton, because of the restricted 
franchise, they have a Tory council there that just wants to 
embarrass this government. 



I 



^-1^ Mar. 23 

I'iR. THOKAtt (Ontario): Some of these municipalities 
would have made aoproaches to the government had they not 
insisted themselves in investigating the oroject. About two 
and a half months ago a committee was set up of three 
members by the city counci'l of Oshawa to investigate this very 
same project and after about two months of investigatSing, they 
reported back to the council that there v;as nothing in it, 
that is all. 

riR. FROST: In other words, they didn't vrant anjrthing 
to do about it. V/hat can we do? 

MR. THC MAS: (Ontario) : No, there was nothing in it. 

M. R. SCOTT (Beaches): I wonder if I could direct a 
question to the hon. Minister of Planning and Development (Mr. 
Grie singer) — I am not just sure who that is at the moment. 

SCr-nS hon. HiiJIBERS: Ch, oh. 

rit. FROST: You are never sure of anything, anyv/ay, 

I^-H. SCOTT (Beaches): It is a simple question to the 
hen. Minister of Planning and Development (Mr. Griesinger). 
How many houses have been built in Ontario under the Housing 
amendments passed last year- -how many houses? 

MR. GRIESINGER: ^/ell, that is the third time. 

MR. FROST: Some place around 33,165. 

I'E.. SCOTT (Beaches): How many houses, can the hon. 
Mi.: ister (Mr. Griesinger) ansv;er? 

m. \J. H. TEMPLE (High Park): That is a simple Ques- 
tion , surely. 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: They do not know. 

MR. FROST: 33,000. 

M. SCOTT (Beaches): Can we not get an answer to that 
simple question. 

SOIE hon.M^viBERS: No. 

Hon. CHARLES DALEY (Minister of Labor): No, it is a 



G-19 Mar. 2^ 

silly question. 

m. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): On a point of pri- 
vilege, Mr. Chairman. If the government v/ill agree, in view 
of the fact that it is after five and there is somebhing 
important on, I would undertake when we reconvene to explain 
the government's position — 

SCm hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. SALSBERG: --to the full satisfaction of the House 
in ten minutes, that is all. And the government will, I am sure, 
then recognize that everything that can be said has been said. 

m. FROST: Vote 130. 

SOIE hon. MEffflERS: Carried, 

MR. MILLARD: 130—1 would like to accommodate the hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), who, I understand, has a pressing 
engagement this evening, but it is going to ta ke a few moments 
to explain the .lack of memory on the part of the present 
hon. Attorney-General {llr . Porter) with regard to certain things 
that he said in 194^. 

MR. FRQST: Oh, we will take that as read. \^e h^.ve 
passed that item now. 

SOFIE hon. MEMBERS: No. 

MR. MILLARD: No, you have not, and as far as I am con- 
cerned, you are not going to oass it until I get the record 
straight. If you want to take the time now, we will go ahead 
now. 

MR. FROST: That is asking an impossibility, to ever 
get the record straight with my hon. friend {Mr. Millard). 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Carried. 

MR. FROST: He cannot be straightened. 

MiR. MILLARD: ¥ir Chairnan, I would like to read this 
from the Toronto Daily Star, Thursday, June 17th, 194^. 

SOME HON. MEIvIBERS: Oh, oh. 



G-20 Mar. ZS . 

AN hon. MEMBER: The Toronto Star? 

MR. MILLARD: The headline 1 have said before, the 

Toronto Star is riot unfriendly tc the government. 

THE CHAIRMN: ^^at is this on? 

MR. MILLARD: This is on item 5. 

m. FROST; 'v/hat is the use of threshing over old 
straw? 

MR. MILLARD: Because the authorities of this -or evince 
want to know where they are going and what they c an depend on 
now. 

MR. FROST: I have given you a clear statement and 
my hon. friend (Mr. Millard) might as v/ell understand. We 
are willing and .ve are enter? ng into a big partnership 
agreement with the Federal and municipal authorities; our 
contribution is to b e 375^, the Federal will be 37i'fo and the 
municipal 2^%. That is the ticket anybody can come in on. 

That is the situation, 

MR. MILLARD: I would like to take the opportunity to 
refresh the memory of the government in their promises. 

AN hon. MEMBER: We know you can read. 

MR. MILLAilD: The headline is: 
"Will double " 

THE CHAIRMAN: The vote is carried. 

SOLE hon. IIEMBMERS: Oh, oh. 

AN hon. ]\1EI^BER: Out of order. 

MR. MILLARD: I declare it was not passed. 

AN hon. MEPIBER: VJe kn5w you can read. 

m. FRCST: Let us hear what our hon. friend (Mr. Millard) 
has to say. 

MR. MILLARD: The headline here is: 

"V/ill double 375 P. C offer for Humber 
plan Porter" 



G-21 Mar. 2^ 

That is the headline. I will give the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Griesinger) a few quotes fromthe text. Now the plan of the 
Hiomber dams is reported at the occasion at the Old Mill 
on this particular date: 

"Recommen(^tions included in the report are: 
Construction of six medium-siaed dams and 
numerous smaller ones throughout Humber Valley 
to prevent spring floods and increase summer 
flow of v/ater; creation of six large parks and 
eighteen smaller ones comprising over 4000 
acres and with a daily capacity of aver 
14,000 people; establishment of a 20,000- 
acre forest in Albion Township, and a compre- 
hensive programme to increase wild life iin the 
area." 
And in connect ioh witji that recommendation of the Humber 
¥alley Authority that was set up by this government or its 
predecessor, the administration, with a great deal of fanfare 
as to what these Valley Authorities were going to do, I 
might say, Mr. Chairman, I am tremendously interested in 
the question of the Humber Valley Authority improvement 
plan. 



(Take H follows) 



Mar ell 26tli,19ul 



H-1 



Here is a statement as it appears, vjhi oh I put 
on the record last year, and remind it to the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Porter) about it today, but he comes before us now 
and says quite bluntly that he cannot recollect making 
any statement. It is a year ago now — in fact, March 
29th, a year less one day, that I read part of the state- 
ment. 

]VIR. PQRTIiE: I do not think I was in the House vi/hen 
you read it last year. I do not recall it. That was a 
year ago. Lots of water has run under the bridge since 
then. 

MR. MILL/^iD: That is true, and a lot of erosion 
has gone on during the past year, and it shows hov; little 
attention has been paid to the report of the Conservation 
Committee, which had devoted considerable time to that 
subject. This goes on to say: 

"v/hile federal government experts study 
the feasibility of provincial flool control 
plans, Q,aeen's Park will double its original 
offer of 37-|- per cent toward the cost of 
projects so that municipalities will con- 
tribute only 25 per cent. This was announced 
last night by Hon. Dana Porter, minister 
of Planning and Development, as the report 
of the Humber Valley Conservation Authority 
was made public. 

•V'/e are prepared to advance a further 37; 
per cent, over ovx first 37-|- per cent, 
pending the decision of the Federal govern- 
ment,' Mr, Porter said. 'Any authority 



H-2 

can now be assured of 75 per cent of 

the costs from one or the other central 

governments or both.' 

He said in reforestation the province 

v\/ould supply trees, plant and maintain them, 

fence the area and contribute one-half the 

cost of land. The municipality would be 

responsible for the other half of land 

acquired, he said, 

'This financing of the river valley 
conservation projects and reforestation 
will be done because vi^e regard them of 
sufficient importance', the minister 
declared, 'I believe it is in the interests 
of the province to see these works go ahead 
Vi/ithout undue delay . ' " 
And two years later the hon. Minister (Mr, Porter) 
responsible for that statement, publicly made and reported 
in the press, said, "I cannot even recall it". It was so 
important, that he cannot recall it. 

I say that this government supplying, under 

item 5 of the estimate, §130,000 for the River Valley 
Conservation sprveys and authorities in this province, 
is just pure bluff, on their part, 

SCME hon. M^MBStS : Hear, hear, 

MR, i.ilLL^RD: You did not mean a word of what you 
said, and you are just "passing the buck" in regard to 
doing the job, 

oOME hon, MliMBERS: Hear, hear. 



Vl^ 



March 28th, 1951 



H-3 

VOTES 131 to 134 ,"reed to. 

MR, SALSBERG; Mr, Chairman, I have been on my feet, 
I wanted the opportunity — 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Carry it, 

MR, SJiLSBERG: I wanted to have an opportunity to 
say a few words when we reached the item on "Immigration", 
and I would ask that we not rush this number, 

MR, FROST: V7ould this meet the convenience of the 
hon, member (Mr, Salsberg)? \'Je have four estimates left, 
and I think vi/e could complete those tomorrow, which would 
enable us to clear up the Bills on the Order Paper on Friday, 
On Monday we can then go ahead with the Budget Debate, vi/hich 
will give the hon, member (Mr, Salsberg) his annual opportu- 
nity to flay the government's financial policy, and he can 
raise the question of immigration at that time, I think 
if we can make the progress which we should make, we ought 
to be able to proceed fairly rapidly. Tomorrow v\/ith the 
Departments of Agriculture, and Labor. Labor has been dis- 
cussed until it is threadbare, and I imagine there will be 
very little objection to the estimates, 

MR, SALSBERG: You will be surprised, 

MR, FROST: There will be a special meeting of the 
Lands and Forests Committee tomorrow morning, and I vjould ask 
the hon. members to be there, and ask all the questions they 
desire. That leaves only the office of the Provincial 
Treasurer, and I think we might clear up the balance of the 
Order Paper, leaving Monday clear for the Election Bill, 
for the balance of the Budget debate, and the formal Bills 
which come in at the closing of the Legislature, 

That seems to be about the order of things, and I 
think we might try to proceed along that line. 



H-4 



Mr. Chairman, I move ttt, 'Sommittee rise and report 
progress. 

MR. SAL3BERG: I was going to say tiiat I agree, 
out of consideration to the Press Gallery, but there is 
so much to flay the government for, I thought I might 
get one item off my mind at this time. 

Motion agreed to. 

The House resumes; Mr, Speaker in the Chair. 

MR. T.L. PATRICK (Middlesex North): Mr. Speaker, 
the Committee of the 1/hole House begs to report the 
Committee has come to a certain resolution, and begs leave 
to sit again. 

Motion agreed to. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I move the House do nov; adjourn. 

Motion agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 5.17 of the clock p.m. 



-v<»t«*-^ 



msi 



PROCEEDINGS 



OF THE 



THIRD SESSION 



OF THE 



TWENTY-THIRD LEGISLATURE 



PROVINCE OF ONTARIO 



Hon- (RevJ M. C Daries, Speaker 



Volume XXXVIII 

THURSDAY, MARCH 29th, 1951 



March 29th, 1951. 



A-2 

And the House having met. 

Prayers , 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting Reports by Committees. 

Motions , 

Introduction of Bills. 

Orders of the Day, 

MR. E. B. JOLLIFFE( Leader of the Opposition); 'Mr. 
Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, it is my duty to 
bring to the attention of the House a matter of grave 
importance to the public and to ourselves. I thimk I may 
take as my starting point an editorial and an article 
which appeared in the "Financial Post" for March 31st, 
1951, and which I did not see until this morning. 

These articles, Mr. Speaker, relate to the 
history of an organization known as the "United Emergency 
Fund for Britain" , I may say that the things which appear 
in the Post are not entirely new to me, because in recent 
weeks I have been making some enquiry in this matter 
myself, and I was at"e independently to obtain some of 
the information — although not all of it — which now 
appears in the Post, 

I should explain, Mr. Speaker, that this is a 
case of an Organization incorporated under a Charter 
from the Dominion government early in the year 194^, 
which appeal;:-' to the public in Ontario and other 
provinces for financial contributions for a charitable 
purpose — and a highly-laudable purpose, in the main, 
the purpose of forwarding to the people of Britain some 



March 29th, 1951. 



1-3 

supplementary assistance which would help to relieve 
them at a time of their food shortages, and at a time 
when the people of the United Kingdom were subject to 
food rationing. 

This,, of course, Mr. Speaker, is not the only- 
case of charity in recent months which has come under 
public criticism, by reason of the conduct of its affairs . 
It is not the only case, but it is clearly an outstanding 
and important case, and I raise it now because I think 
it merits the most serious consideration of all the hen, 
members of this House and this government, and because 
I have a sugg estion to mkke which I think v/ill go sci^e 
distance toward meeting the problem represented by thic 
type of charity. 

The House will, I think, appreciate the gravity 
of the matter if I quote from an editorial of the 
Financial Post; 

Under the heading "On Lending Your Name to 
Charity", we find the following: 

"On Page 13 of this issue we publish the 
story of a charity operation which 
deserves the atv.ention of the thousands 
of prominent Canadians who give their timo, 
their money and the prestige of their names 
to the promotion of good causes. 

Here was a money-raising campaign v/hlch 
brought in approximately |593,000. Main 
purpose of the fund, the public understood, 
was these contributions would be used to 
send food parcels to Britain, 



A-4 

But of the $593,000. raised, the accounts 
show that only $SSO, Was spent on food for 
Britain, Other expenditures included some 
11^5,364 for salaries, |lgg,533 for 
advertising and publicity, $7^,000. for 
travel, with further amounts for other 
administrative expenses , 

A publicity firm operated by the chief 
administrative officer of the fund received 
some $^3,000. 

So ir(*,st of the money went, not for pro- 
viding Britons with food parcels, but for 
encouraging other people and other organi- 
zations to send Britons food parcels, 
clothing, etc. 

Revelations of this kind are full of 
instruction for prominent and well-meaning 
people who go on charity boards of directors, 
committees, etc. First, they should find 
out very clearly the origins, personnel 
and purposes of the charity wanting them. 
Secondly, if they accept, they should see 
to it that they really know how the 
business affairs are being conducted. 

Important, too is the fact that, like 
any well-run business, the development of 
a charitable organization should be gradual 
and sound. Quite obviously costs which may 
be reasonable for raising $10 millions would 
be out of proportion for a $1 million fund. 



March 29th, 1951. 



A-5 

Trying to do too much too fast is as 
dangerous for a charity as it is for a 
business, 

GIVERS DESERVE ALL THE FACTS 

Publication of the facts about the fund 
here described, the United Emergency Fund 
for Britain, as did our report on the 
Canadian Foundation for Poliomyelitis will 
doubtless add to the growing demand for some 
national agency which will license or other- 
wise "clear" appeals for public funds. 

As matters nov; stand you or anybody else 
can make a public appeal for any purpose 
whatever and do with -che receipts whatever 
you wish. 

There are some good things but we think 
many bad things about any mandatory licens- 
ing scheme o 

But there is a great deal of merit in the 
system growing in the United States of 
privately operated charity information offices 
manned by people experienced in sfich work 
and with a rigid set of standards for a 
charity's performance. To such organizations 
business firms and individuals can go for 
information as to v/herB they can do the 
most real good with their charity dollars. 

Most charitable ocjieccives are unquestionably 
good, and most charities are efficiently and 
economically run,, Eirt the public now being 



March 29th, 1951. 



A^6 

subject.'- i to so many claims for its extra 
dollars is more than ever interested in 
getting all the facts." 
Mr, Speaker, that concludes the editorial, but 
in the second section of the Financial Post it gives a 
detailed description of the origin, history and result 
of the United Emergency Fund for Britain. I may say, 
Mr. Speaker, that as far as I have been able to go into 
this matter, the facts as stated in the Financial Post 
coincide with the facts I discovered independently, 

I do not propose to read to the House the whole 
story of this extraordinary charity, but I think some 
features of it should be brought to the attention of the 
House now. I hope every hon. iaember of the House will 
read in full the article in the Financial Post, because 
it is moxt illuminating, and will bring home to all of 
us a situation which I think is of the greatest importance. 

They received a charter in 194^. It was not 
subject to the War Charities Act of the Dominion, because 
the V/ar Charities Act of the Dominion which was in force 
during the v/ar, and which ^^ras concerned with any charity 
having among its objects any purpose, charitable or other- 
wise, arising from or connected with the war, but did 
not continue in effect so far as a project of this kind 
is concerned, after June of 1947. 

The V7ar Charities Act was amended in 1947 to 
provide that it would apply only in respect of war charity 
funds "registered prior to the coming into of this Act" 
in June, 1947, so the United Emergency Fund for Britain, 
formed in 194S, v/qs in no way subject to the Dominion Act 



A-7 

and in no way subject to Federal supervision, except, 
of course, it did receive a Federal Charter. Indeed, 
Mr, Speaker, so many prominent and important people 
lent their names as sponsors of the United Emergency 
Fund for Britain, that the Dominion Government itself 
made a grant of $30,000. to the U.E^F.B. 

As has been explained, the purpose of the fund 
was to send food parcels to needy Britons, and it was 
operated at a time V7hen it was hoped that bulk purchases 
in Canada v;ould result in a saving, that is to say, it 
was felt that by purchasing food in a large way, it could 
be purchased more economically than could an individual 
Canadian purchasing small quantities of food to send 
overseas. 

The Fund, through the government, was also able 
to make arrangements with the British government for 
special rates for transportation. That was brought out 
as another reason why people should send their parcels 
through the U.E.F.B. 

The fund set out to raise $7,000,000, an im- 
possible objective, one which could only be dreamed up 
in the mind of a high powered promoter. The objective 
was reduced to $5,000,000, and later on reduced again, 
but unfortunately, when the objective was reduced, the 
expenses were not reduced, the gap amounted day by day, 
and somewhere along the road the promoters decided that 
their appeal to send food for needy Britons was failing, 
and they therefore changed the functions of the fund. 
They went into business in a commercial way, they formed 
what was known as "Canaid", and they acted as agents for 



March 29th, 1951. 



people sending food to Britain. It is claimed that over 
|l million worth of food and clothing was forwarded to 
Britain under the agency of "Canaid", which was really under 
the auspices of U.E.F.B, But that was all paid for. 
That was in addition to nearly $600,000 raised by U.E.F.B, 
while the actual amount spent on food shipped to Britain 
was about ^SSO, — |SSO. in food parcels to Britain, with 
receipts of about $600,000. 

This change in policy was made by the promoters 
without notice to the public and apparently wit|rout 
knowledge of the fundus most active supporters. 

Mr. Speaker, I would like to pause at this 
point to say that this fund had the unselfish support 
of a great many of our best citizens, who were acting 
in regard to it in good faith; as far as they were 
concerned, it wqs a labor of love, and they cannot be 
blamed for what happened. They did not know what was 
going on; they did not know v/hat the expenses of the fund 
were; they were assured by Mr. Daly and others associated 
with him that there were 75 active branches of this 
organization in Ontario alone. ViJhen the women's auxiliary 
was formed, to coordinate the efforts of the women who 
were working on it -- and working hard — they made their 
own enquirires and they found that there were not 75 
branches, but, as a matter of fact, there were only 
about 3, and they became extremely dissatisfied with the 
situation. The result was that the v^omen formed an 
executive, and were given some recognition by the Board. 

In July of last year the women, having made a good 
many enquiries of their own, came to the conclusion that 



A-9 

1..-, whole project was being operated in such an unsound 
and unsatisfactory manner that it should be wound up, 
and it was on their insistence that after two auditors' 
reports were taken, which began to reveal the truth, 
it v/as decided in the summer of last year to wind up 
the affairs of this fund, and cease doing business. 

There are r.any shocking details which I can give 
to the House, but which I will not take the time to do 
now. I think every hon. member of the House should read 
the articles in the Post in full, and I give my assurance, 
from my own enquiry, that the articles in the Post are 
founded on a great deal of hard work and the facts given 
are the result of research, and cannot be contradicted. 

Mr, Speaker, I will not take up much more time 
going into details, because I have said enough already 
to indicate how serious it is. But I do have a suggestion 
to make about our own relationship to this affair, and 
its activities. In the first place, it is apparent 
there exists a gap in our law and in the administration 
of the law with respect to charity. There is no mach- 
inery set up to protect the public against appeals which 
may be fraudulent or semi-fraudulent, or questionable, 
or unsound. If I may draw an analogy — not a perfect 
one — there was a time when we had little or no legis- 
lation and little or no machinery to protect the p' Mic 
against fraudulent or semi-fraudulent stock promotions. 
Some 30 years ago — was it not? — or less, it was 
found necessary to pass a Security Frauds Prevention 
Act, Later the Securities Act came into force and we 
set up an office under the wing of the Attorney-General 



March 29th, 1951. 



1-10 

to protect the public against the operations of un- 
scrupulous promoters and salesmen. We have no corres- 
ponding protection with respect to charity, and we have 
reached a point in the development of our society, where 
the number of ingenious men who live and flourish by 
their wits rather than by honest work, appears to be 
increasing, and amongst those, are a number who undertake 
the promotion of any kind of organization and enterprise 
ostensibly for the public good, but primarily for their 
own aggrandizement. That appears to be what happened in 
this case. Their technique in the United States is that 
they invariably invite prominent and highly regarded 
citizens to lend their names to some worthy cause, as 
they think. Naturally, public spirited citizens are 
usually willing to lend their names to the promotion 
of a worthy cause, 

I regret to inform the hon. members of the House 
that some of our most prominent and experienced business- 
men were on the Board of the U.E.F.B,, and being busy with 
other things, or possibly for reasons of convenience, they 
did not know precisely v/hat was being done by management, 
v/ith disastrous results. 

May I inform the House as I did on a previous 
occasion, that there is precedent in law for stating 
thftt> the hon. Attorney General (Mr. Porter) has a measure 
of responsibility v/ith respect to charities. I do not 
think, however, the duty vested in the hon. Attorney 
General (Mr. Porter) by precedent goes far enough. May 
I refer again to the New Zealand case, in which Lord 
McNaughton referred to the responsibility of the Attorney 



March 29th, 1951. 



A-11 

General in that regard. I am quoting a statement from 
Halsbury's Laws of England, Second Edition, Volume 4, 
at page 339, where we find the following: 

"The Crown, as parens patriae is the con- 
stitutional protector of all properties 
subject to charitable trusts, such a trust 
being essentially a matter of public concern. 
And the Attorney General, who represents 
the Crovm for all forensic purposes, is 
accordingly the proper person to take 
proceedings on behalf of and to protect 
charities." 
That is about as far as it goes . There is no 
doubt that the proper person to initiate action with 
respect to charities is the Attorney General, sometimes 
upon the relation of a private citizen. But we do not 
have the machinery which would enable the hon, Attorney- 
General (Mr. Porter) to take any action which should be 
initiated, and that seems to me the most important point 
which arises at the present time. Indeed, I do not know 
of any case in Canada where the Attornej'' General has 
initiated an action of this kind, but undoubtedly he is 
the person to do it, if it is to be done. 

Secondly, we do have some legislation in this 
province relating to charities, but it does not seem to 
fover a case of this kind. As we all know, we have the 
Charitable Gifts Act which is not relevant here, and we 
have the Charitable Institution Act aa 

MR. FROST: V.Taat about the Charities' Accounting 
Act? 



March 29th, 1951. 



A-12 

MR, JOLLIFFE: I was about to mention the 
Charities* Accounting Act. I have examined that Act 
with some care. It might be argued it would cover a 
case of this kind, but I qm not sure it could be so 
argued successfully, because the Charity Accounting Act 
relates to trusts created by will or other in3tru.-nent 
in writing. I suppose one might say that the U„E.F,3, 
was operating under a Federal Charter v:hich was an instrument 
in writing within the meaning of the Act but I am not 
sure that is right and I do not think the Act [t^qs far 
enough to deal effectively "vith a case of this kind. 

During a debate in this House ti'.'o years cigo, the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) indicated that the 
government intended to pass regulations under the 
Charities' Accounting Act. indeed, tho hon. Prine 
Minister (Mr. Frost) spoke ct second reading of! the 
Charitable Gifts Act, and mr.de that very clear, Ke said 
specifically that regulation would be jassed under the 
Charities' Accounting Act. 

I have here a quotation from the remarks of the 
hon. Prime Minister [llr. Frost) on March 25th, l'^49, at 
page 1336 of Hansard, where he said: 

"Having the above in mind, it is the in- 
tention of the government, by means of 
regulations under the Charities' Accounting 
Act, to provide that all charitable trusts 
and foundations shall file viith the proper 
officer financial statements relating to 
the operations of such trusts so that the 
public which is interested through its 



IVIarch 29th, 1951. 



A-13 

contributions by v/ay of succes'sion duty 
exemptions and the charities which are 
interested as beneficiaries under the 
trusts, shall have the fullest information 
as to what is taking place. This object, 
however, is in addition to the purposes 
of this particular bill which deals with 
another aspect of the probleia vrhich, under 
present conditions, has become more 
apparent," 



(TAKE "B" FOLLOWS) 



B-1 

I subsequently referred to that statement of the 
Prime Minister. I think 1 described it as "Window 
Dressing", and pointed out that no regulations had yet been 
..adopted under The Charities Accounting Act. I find to-day, 
more than two years later, that no regulations have yet 
been adopted, or at least filed under The Charities Account- 
ing Act. So I wonder - what happened to all the good 
intentions of two years ago. I am beginning to suspect 
I was right when I described that statement two years ago 
as "Window Dressing". 

Apart from that question, I do not think that the 
Eharities Accounting Act or regulations that might be 
passed thereunder would be sufficient or adequate. I 
am going to make this suggestion to the Government, after 
having given this matter considerable study over the 
past two weeks, and having passed thought seriously about 
what might be the best answer, that the time has come 
when there should be ' 'Dmplete review of the whole 

blem relating to the promotion of charities and the 
supervision of charities, I have asked myself whether 
this would be appropriate for enquiry by a select 
committee of this House, perhaps by the committee which 
is to be appointed at this Session, a committee appointed 
to enquire into law enforcement and the administration 
of justice; but I have come to the conclusion, Mr. 
Speaker, and I hope the Government is going to agree 
with me, that an enquiry such as this into a specific 
problem, which I think should be a very thorough enquiry 
by one of our better mind, could best be made if the 
Government were to use its powers under the Public 



B-2 

Inquiries Act, to commission a very able judte to go into 
the whole problem, to inquire into the history of two or 
possibly three pf the recent promotions whic^ have gone 

on the rocks and I think it is correct and fair to 

say that both the March of Dimes and the United Emergency 

Fund for Britain went on the rocks to inquire into 

the history of these organizations, so that their 
techniques may.be analysed, so that we may learn 
exactly how they operate and why they come to grief; 
and secondly, having done all this, to recommend to the 
government appropriate legislation and the proper 
machinery to grapple with this problem. 

Previously at this Session, there has been some 
mention of rQ:T~l commissions. 



(PAGE B-3 FOLLOllfS) 



o:; 



B-3 



I think I made it clear that in my viev; they are approp- 
riate on some occasions and not on others. In my opinion, 
Mr. Speaker, this is an occasion v/hen a full inquiry by a 
Judge v;ould be perhaps the best method of discovering the 
correct answer to a difficult problem. I think such an 
inquiry should not be restricted or inhibited in any 
way by the unfortunate fact that some of our leading citizens 
allowed their names to be identified with the fiasco known 
as the United Emergency Fund for Britain, I have no desire to 
pillory anybody in this connection; on the contrary, I have 
a gread de&i of sympathy v;ith the citizens, particularly 
the women who vjorked so hard in support of the United 
Emergency Fund for Britain. On the other hand, I say, 

as the Financial Post has said, that the leading citizens 
who lend their names to such enterprises must hereafter 
accept more responsibility for what happens, I just do not see 
any other answer to it. 

Finally, may 1 point out that nothing is more certain 

to dry up the sources of charitable support than developments 
such as we have had in the case of this charity and others. 
There is no more set way of convincing the public that it is 
useless to give your money towards a good cause , because you 

never know hov/ it will be handled, I am very hopeful that 
the Prime Minister and the Government will agree that we have 
come to the point where something just has to be done about 
this, both for the protection of the publid and for the 
protection of beneficiaries of charitable enterprises. I hope 
the Government will also agree that any machinery which now 
eJxists is v;holly inadequate to meet the problem be:fore us , 



March 29tli, 1951. 
B-4 

Mon. LISLTZ i:. ZR03T (Prirae Ilir.istsr) : Kr. Speaker, 
I have just rocaivad a portion of the ITinancial Post date- 
llnsd !:arch 31st, so that ray friend apparentl^^ r^ets his 
cojy of this paper before I do. This is only the <;9th of 
Ilarch. 

:~{. JOLLir?::: I -ot it just about an hour and a half a.-o, 

Ton. 1.2?.. Jn03r: I'^ov.', i:r. Spaalcsr, I find mycelf in 
agreeraent v;ith what ray hon. friand h-.s said. This problem 
is very re.t. I think th-^.t perhaps my hon. friend and 
myself, in considerina this gre .t problem, because it is a 
gre:'.t problem, find ourselves closer together to-day than 
vje have been on other occasions, 

l!R. J0LLIP7E: Yes. 

I:r. PR03T: I think that my hon. friend thou ht he'd 
offended. I agree \;ith ray hon. friend th"t this is a 
very gre^-t problem indeed, — the extent to v/hicl: charities 
in Gan-^.da and the 'Jnited gtates are or can be used for 
purposes other than charity. I think the probler: deserves 
our very gre-.test and most thorough attention. 

I am interested in the proposition made by the Pinancial 
Post relative to soxae type of nation"'! re-isuration. On 
the othar l-and, I '~;gree \.ith my hon. friend that it does 
not seem- th:.t the ood f .ith -^.nd the operation of so-c:.lled 
charitable projects such as these c .n be left entirely to 
the Pederal Government or agents of that '^-overnment . I 
think they v;ill have to receive some attention from us here. 
As my hon. friend intim-'ted, v;e have in force in Ontario at 
least tvvo Acts v;hich naturally come to our minds in this 
connection. One is the Charities 



B-5 

Accounting Act. I am rather inclined to agree with my 
hon. friend that the cases he had stated do not come 
within the scope of that Act, but they may. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I am not sure. 

MR. FROST: I am not sure. Then we ha ve, of 
course, the Charitable Gifts Act of two years ago, 
dealing with quite a different phase of this mar^'- -sided 
problem. 

Since our discussion in relation to another phase 
of this matter, some two years ago, the Public Trustee, 
Mr. Racine, has paid a lot of attention to this problem, 
and I can say that progress has been made in the matter 
from an administrative standpoint which really had not 

been contemplated at that time. It may be and we 

have been giving consideration to this that the 

Charities Accounting Act should be streamlined, that the 
scope of the Act and the nature and extent of its operation, 
should be advanced a little and enlar;.ed. I think that 
in the last two years, we have acquired experience through 
the Public Trustee's Office which might justify some type 
of registration within the Province. My hon. friend 
recognizes, of course, the difficulty that attaches to 
Provincial registration. I do not say that these difficulties 
are in such a way that they would rule out taking that 
course. But, as he well knows, many charities are national 
in scope. Take for instance, such a great charity as the 
Red Cross; it is national in scope; and it might not be 
desirable to have subject to Provincial registration an 
organization such as that. On the other hand, it might be. 



March 29th, 1951. 



B-6 

Furthermore, there is the consideration that the Federal 
Government gives exemptions for Income Tax by reason of 
charitable donations and gifts. I think it is desirable 
that if there is to be a registration of this sort, it 
should run parallel with what the Federal Administration 
say in that regard. 

As regards the case, in point, Mr. Speaker, I 
have had a copy of this paper and I have shown it to the 
Attorney General. First of all, we will have Mr. Racine 
look into this particular casej in view of existing 
legislation. Secondly, I think it is quite proper to 
say this, but I do not want in any way to prejudice this 
case, that it is a matter which the Law Officers might 
review from the standpoint of the possibility of criminal 
proceedings. I am in no way intimating that anything of 
that sort is implied, but in view of the publicity and 
the attention given to this matter, I think it should be 
reviewed by the Law Qfficers. 

As regards a Royal Commission, we are quite 
prepared to give consideration to that suggestion. I 
think it is advisable that we should discuss the matter 
with the Public Trustee, In the last couple of years, 
I have had some general conversation with him about this 
great problem of charities and the use of charities in 
ways which are certainly not in line with charitable 
intention. Again, I do not want to pass judgment on this 
particular matter. From what the Leader of the Opposition 
has said, and the headlines in the paper here, apparently 
there are very many undesirable features, if these 
statements a re true. 



IVIarch 29th^ 1951. 



H-7 

MR, JOLLIFFE: I tried to be very conservative 
in anything I said. 

m. FROST: That is right. 1 would not want to 
pass hasty judgment on the actions of people. All I can 
say is that indications here are such that the subject 
deserves and requires attention. V/e will see that it 
receives attention. It may be that, as my hon. friend 
has said, it would be desirable to have a Royal Commission 
look into the whole field of Charitable Acts and the 
operation of such affairs as the ones to which reference 
has been made. Certainly, I think, the Charities Account- 
ing Act can be strengthened in many ways. I will say that, 
in my general conversation with Mr. Racine, he is a very 
able and good Officer, and I suggested that we should not 
make hasty decisions but that we should profit by ex- 
perience of the operation and administration of the Act, 
and form our judgments from the very best information 
that we can get. 

I may say, Ifr. Speaker, that the Charities 
Accounting Act, as is well know, was passed some years 
ago. I do not think that it has been in active use until 
very recent days. Apparently, a situation arose some 
years ago which led to the passing of the Act: then, due 
to complications in respect of its administration, it was 
allowed to just ride along. I have a recollection that a 
former Attorney General, Hon. Mr. Conant, introduced 
Legislation here to provide that rules be made by the 
Judges of Osgoode Hall in connection with the adminis- 
tration of the Charities Accounting Act. Personally, I 
do not think that the operation of that measure has been 



good. I think it will be far better that the matter 
should be brought closer to the Government and rules be 
made by regulation in the ordinary way and upon the 
advice of our Offi'/s ..ho are administering these thin^P 
I would not like to comment any more specifically, 
Mr. Speaker, upon what the hon. member has said. We 
recognize, of course, that there is here a very great 
problem, It is one to which we shall give attention; 
and we shall give full consideration to what v. hon. 
friend has said relative to a Royal Commission after we 
have had the opportunity of discussing this matter with 
our Law Officers. 

Hon. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I WOUla like to proceed to-day, as I intimated yesterday, 
almost immediately with the estimates; but in order that 
we shall not run into a period where we have no work 
before the Assembly, it occurred to me that we might get 
some of the Bills now standing for Second reading into a 
position where they could be considered in Committee 
to-morrow, I would like to proceed, therefore, with the 
second reading of Bills which are, perhaps, non-contentious, 
to advance them into Committee. 

I will call order number twelve. 

NIAGARA PARKS ACT 

THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twelfth order, second 
reading of Bill No. 141, "An Act to amend the Niagara 
Parks Act". Mr. Daley. 

Hon. D. POINTER: In the absence of hon. Mr. ^aley, 
I move second reading of Bill No. 141. 



March 29thk 19i>l. 



B-9 

MR. W. L. HOUCK: I have something to say on 
this Bill, but if it is the wish of the Premier*, I will 
withhold it until the Bill goes to Committee. Would 
that be agreeable to the Premier? 

Hon. MR. FROST; Yes. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

Hon. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 13. 

REGISTRY ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The thirteenth order, 
second reading of Bill No* 142, "An Act to amend the 
Registry Act",. Mr. Porter. 

Hon. DA^'A PORTER (Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, 
I move second reading of Bill No. 142, 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

Hon. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 14. 

ALCOHOLISM RESEARCH FOUNDATION ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The fourteenth order, second 

reading of Bill No. 143, "An Act to amend the Alcoholism 

Research Foundation Act". Mr. Phillips. 

Hon. DANA PORTER: Mr. Speaker, in the absence 
beg to 
of Hon. Mr. Shillips, l/move second reading of Bill No. 143. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): In view of the 
fact that the Minister is absent, I think it should be 
agreed that if there are any questions relating to 
principle, they can be raised 

Hon. MR. PORTER: That is right, in Committee. 



March 29th, 1951. 



B-10 
Hon. LESLIE M. FROST(Prime Minister): Order No. 15 
TK-F. PUBLIC HEALTH ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The fifteenth order, the 
second reading of Bill No. 144, "An Act to amend The 
Public Health Act", llr. Phillips. 

Hon. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, 
in the absence of the hon. Mr. Phillips, ml beg to move 
second reading of Bill No. 144. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

Hon. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 16, 

BEDS OF NAVIGABLE V/ATF^,|i: ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The sixteenth order, the 
second reading of Bill No. 145, "An Act to amend the 
Beds of Navigable Waters Act". Mr. Scott. 

Hon. H. R. SCOTT (Minister of Lands & Forests): 
Mr. Speaker, I beg to move second reading of Bill No. 145. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill, 

Hon. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 17 

RURAL TELEPHONE SYSTEMS BILL 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The seventeenth order, the 
second reading of Bill No. 146, "An Act respecting Rural 
Telephone Systems". Mr. Challies. 

Hon. GEORGE H. CHALLIES (Minister Without Portfolio) 
Mr. Speaker, I beg to move second reading of Bill No. I46. 

MR. McEWING: Mr, Speaker, I understand it is 
quite agreeable to the government that we shall defer our 
discussion until the Bill is in Committee. 



March 29th, 1951. 



/ E-11 

Hon. MR. FROST: If there is to be any trouble 
at all, I would, if it were desirable, hold with the 
second reading. On the other hand, if my hon. friend 
is in agreement with the general principles, I think 
the Bill might as well go to Committee; the details can 
be discussed then, 

MR. McMING: I would like to deal for a while 
with the Bill on the basis that it might be enlarged 
somewhat . 

MR. JOLLIFFE: M^e would like to hear you. 

Hon. MR. FROST: Mr. Speaker, hold the second 
reading. 

Second reading stands, 

Hon. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No.l^i. 

THE LAND TRANSFER TAX ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The eighteenth order, second 
reaeing of Bill No. 147, "An Act to amend The Land Transfer 
Tax Act" — Mr. Frost. 

Hon. L. M. FROST: Mr. Speaker, I move the second 
reading of Bill No. 147. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

Hon. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 19 
SUCCESSION DUTY ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The nineteenth order, second 
reading of Bill No. 14^, "An Act to amend Succession Duty 
Act". Mr. Frost, 

Hon. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): ¥lr , Speaker, I 

beg to move second reading of Bill No. 14S, 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill, 
(TAKE "C" FOLLOV/S) 



'IOT; .■■::.; 



29th March 



C-1 
Hon, LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 20, 
THS PROVINCIAL LOANS ACT 

CLERK OF THE : OUSE: Twentieth Order, Second Reading 
of Bill No, 149, "An Act to amend The Provincial Loans Act", 
Mr. Frost, 

MR. FROST: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of 
Bill No, 149, 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prine Ilinister): Order No. 21. 

THE HOSPITALS TAX ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-first Order, second reading 
of Bill No. 150, "An Act to amend The Hospitals Tax Act", 
Mr, Frost, 

MR. FROST: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of 
Bill No. 150. 

MR. SALSBERG: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to speak 
at length on this Bill, but I c o want to suggest to the 
government that they change the name of this tax. I think 
it is incorrect and incongrous and misleading to continue 
to refer to the Amusement Tax as "The Hospitals Tax Act", 
when the money goes into the Consolidated Revenue Fund 
and is used for whatever purpose the government may decide. 
It is undoubtedly true that a portion of it does reach the 
hospitals tax, 

MR. mOST: All of it. 

MR, SALSBERG: If the government is not limiting 
its assistance to hospitals by the amount they receive from 
this tax, they may go beyond it, or they may go belo" it. 



29th March 



C-2 

but it is derived from the fund. That is as it should be. 
But to continue to call this a "Hospital Tax Act" seems to 
be almost in the category of calling the Racetrack Tax , a tax 
for the Aged, or The Liquor Tax, a tax for Mothers' Allowances, 
and so on, and so on. In other words, you could go ahead 
and label every tax which is objectionable perhaps to a 
section of the population, with some appealing title so 
people will feel that a part of that tax goes to help the_ 
poor, or the indigent, or the needy, and so on, and so on, 
vVhy not call the Racetrack Tax, a tax for Old-Age pensionersfy 
which I think is just as justified as calling this tax the 
"Hospital Tax Act". I think we should stop playing around 
and call this "The Amusement Tax", because that is what 
it is. It is one of the many taxes wlii ch the province im- 
poses, because it requires funds to carry on the various 
activities of government. That is that, 

Everytime I go by the office of the Hospital tax 
Act in this building, I pause, before I go any further, 
because I feel there is a very misleading sign on the door. 
It is not a hospital tax; it is a tax to raise revenue, 
and is applied for the different p\irposes of government , 

That is all I want to say, and I think the hon. 
Premier (Mr, Frost) feels the same wa^ * Let us re-name it, 
and call it by some simple, imderstandable title such as 
"The Amusement Tax of the Province of Ontario", 

MR, FROST: Mr, Speaker, just briefly in reply, I 
would point out to the hon, member (Mr, Salsberg) that 
there would be perhaps some merit to his suggestion, if 
it were not for the history of this Act. This Act was intro- 
duced in 1948, on a vote in the House which was nearly 
una'.imous • 



C-3 

MR, SiiiSBERG: All but two members, 

MRo FROST: Thero were two dissonterso Tiic purpose 
vms to give the money to hospitals, A hospital fund was 
set up J ar.d the tax v/as introduced to provido v'lys and means 
for tho grants for public ward bed.i '."liich '//ero rad© -n.t that 
timec Last year w-e cJjolished thst fund, for the ren.Gcn that 
v/e verc spending v :.ry much more money en hospitals than v;as 
being realip'.ed from this i)articular te^:. You vill recollect 
laot year v/e reduced the tax frcin Z0% to 1d>5, and this year 
it was further roducod to 12-j;-5!^o 'iT'^vorthalcss, I can essure 
the hono member (LIi';, Salsbcr^} tha-'- the money is still used 
for hospitai3, and the fear that zowo pcoplo nic^t Lavo 
axprof'soi at tho tim.-^ that thc^re would bo more mcnoy received 
th'--n would be spent on hospitals is nov; ont ir3"L5 dissipated,, 

Vve ei'G spending nov; (-2 on hospitals for evei-y dollar 
wc receivG by \'ay of tl^s to.x^ so it can bo said that this 
Act, which wan introduced for the support of the hospitals, 
is providing money whicb is being properly u'lCj hv.t ncv; 
we are supplementing it by at lea:;t one dollar for every 
dollar raicoa by this ta;:,. 

I think in \'iew of the history of this Act- the 
hona membor (Mr, Salsberg) should leave it tbo wc^; it is, 
and when ho go en to a shov; or some enterto indent, ht.' csn 
feel very v.'ell, bocause he loiows he is contributing to tha 
great hospitals of this provirce., and that should .rc-^lcn him 
feel better^ that if it were caJ.led by another namoo 

UiR^ IviACLECD: If ever a pieco of legislation was 
conceived in sin, and born in iniquity, it is thisc 

MRo WALTERS: i'lr, Spealcer, there is a section of the 
Act about which I em rather pusaled. May I asV: what happens 



29th March 1951 



C-4 

to a place where they have no cover charge, but where 
they have a dining lounge or dining room licence, and 
have entertainment there? 

MR. FliOST: I will explain that, Mr, Speaker. 
I never have enough money myself to go to those places, 
so I cannot speak from actual experience. I \«all say, 
however, that I am quite satisfied my taxing men have not 
forgotten anything, and I am sure the tax will be forth- 
coming. I do not think there is any escape from it. 
Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill, 
Hon. LESLIE M, EROST (Prime Minister): Order No. £2, 

RAISHJG MONEY ON THE CREDIT OF THE CONSOLIDATED 

REVENUE FUND 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-Second Order, second 
reading of Bill No. 151, "An Act to authorize the Raising 
of Money on the Credit of the Consolidated Revenue Fund", 
Mr, Frost. 

MR, FROST: Mr, Speaker, I move second reading of 
Bill No. 151. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill, 

Hv n, . LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister ) : Mr. Speaker, 
I move that you do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve 
itself into the Committee of Supply, 

Motion agreed to, 

THE HOUSE IN COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY; MR. PATRICK IN 
THE CHAIR. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Department 
of Agriculture, Vote No. 2, 

Hon. T.L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Chairman, 



29th March 1951 



¥ 



C-5 

I have prepared what I have to say In short form, but 

I would ask the House permission to place a more extended 

statement on Hansard. 

(PAGE C-6 FOLLOWS) 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 

G-6 

During the past seven years many changes have taken place in 
Ontario agriculture and the Department of Agriculture, through its 
Branches and Institutions has played an important part in bringing 
these changes about. Follovdng is an outline of policies and pro- 
jects xindertaken by the Department since 1943, broken down according 
to the Branch or Institution by which the work is being carried out. 
ONTARIO AGRICULTURAL COLLEGE 

The past seven years have seen many developments at the College, 
including the addition of buildings, equipment and staff. Some of 
the chief developments have been: 

1. The creation of two new Departments - (a) Soils and (b) Agricultural 

Engineering . 

2. The establishment of a new two-year course in practical agriculture 
in 1947. 

3. The addition of two new options - (a) Agriculturail Economics, 

including Farm Management. 

(b) Agricultural Engineering. 

4. The expansion of research facilities and the starting of new 

projects, 

SOURCES OF GRADUATE STUDENTS 
Institution of Undergraduate Training 

O.A.C. 

University of Toronto 

McMaster University 

Macdonald College, Quebec 

Laval University 

University of Saskatchewan 

University of Alberta 

Cornell University 

Durham University 

University of Wageningen 

Federal Institute of Technology 

University of Thessalonique 

Hxingarian University of Agrarian Sciences 

Czech Technical University 

University of Agriculture Brno. 

59 



Location No. 


Students 


Ontario 


43 


Ontario 


1 


Ontario 


1 


Quebec 


2 


Quebec 


1 


Saskatchewan 


1 


Alberta 


1 


New York 


1 


England 


1 


Holland 


2 


Switzerland 


1 


Greece 


1 


Hiingary 


1 


Czechoslovakia 


1 


Czechoslovakia 


1 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 



C-7 



5. The appointment of a Director of Research for the Department of 
Agriculture, stationed at the Ontario Agricultural College, This 
appointment has made possible even closer collaboration and team 
work among the research workers of the various Branches and 
Institutions of the Department, and between these scientists 
and those of the Dominion Department of Agriculture. The need 
for this is obvious as there were over 380 separate Research 
Projects in progress in the Department in 1950. 

6. The establishment of a post-graduate school leading to the degree 
M.S. A. The third calendar for this school will be published this 
year. 

7. The establishment of an Advisory Board. 
MACDONALD INSTITUTE 

1. This institution was re-opened in the fall of 1946 giving the 
one-year diploma course, 

2. The four-year degree course in Home Economics was instituted, 
starting in the Fall of 1948. 

ONTARIO VETERINARY COLLEGE 

Under the guidance of Dr. A. L. MacNabb, who was appointed 
Principal in 1945, this institution has been raised to a higher 
status than ever before. 

A report from the American Veterinary Medical Association' s 
Council on Education states: "Principal MacNabb is to be commended 
upon the changes that have occurred in this school during the last 
few years. From a backward institution with old fashioned ideas, 
a small staff, poor facilities and little enthusiasm, it is now 
alive and vibrant. Everyone from the employees to the Minister of 
Agriculture gives credit to the Principal for these changes and 
they are supporting him. As we have indicated, there are still 
things to be done, but we have confid:;nce that they will be done in 
the near future, and the Ontario Veterinary College will soon take 



f 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 



C-g 



its place among our foremost colleges." Some 25 projects having 
to do with the health of animals have been undertaken or are under 
way at the Ontario Veterinary College. Some of the more important 
and newer ones are: 

(a) Research in Bang's disease and Mastitis in, cattle. 

(b) Free vaccine for calfhood vaccination for Bang's 
Disease has made it possible to campaign against it on 
a Province-wide basis. 

(c) Research in Rhinitis in Swine. 

(d) Research in Blackhead in Turkeys. 

(e) Blood tests (re parentage). 

THE VINELAND EXPERIMENTAL STATION 

This Internationally recognized Station has undergone expansion 
since 1943 and has carried out many important projects, 

1, Grape Sub-Station was established in 1946, 

2, Horticultural Products Processing Laboratory completed in 1950. 

3, Projects: In addition to the work on the Grape Sub-Station the 

station has undertaken 48 new projects since 1943. A 
few of the more important are: 

(a) Quantity and quality of fruit as affected by the stage of 
maturity at picking time, 

(b) Experimental shipments of fr\iit. 

(c) A Microbiological Study under Mulches and Clean Cultivation. 

(d) Pollination of tree fruits as affected by the varying insect 
poptilations, pollination methods, temperatures, nutritional 
conditions, varieties and spraying practices, 

(e) Improvement of varieties of tomatoes for processing, 

(f) The freezing quality of frioit varieties and seedlings. 

(g) The canning qualities of fruit varieties and seedlings. 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 

a-9 

KEMPTVILLE AGRICULTURAL SCHOOL 

In addition to the teaching work carried on at this school, a 
good deal of experimentation with particular application to Eastern 
Ontario has been carried out. These have included such things as: 

(a) Testing of Hybrid Corn varieties suitable for grain or for 
silage in Eastern Ontario. 

(b) Improved the Motor Mechanics and Tractor Course at the school. 

(c) Testing of DDT as an insecticide for potatoes, 

(d) Testing of several materials for late blight control in 
potatoes, 

(e) Pasture demonstration and experimentation. 

(f) Experiments and demonstrations on haymaking and grass silage. 

(g) Experiments in ventilation of dairy barns, 
WESTERN ONTARIO EXPERIMENTAL FARM 

1. The building of an Agricultiiral School at this farm is well under- 
way and will be opened this October. 

2. Projects undertaken include: 

(a) The erection and establishment of an Agricultural School in 
connection with the Experimental Farm here. 

(b) Study of the by-products of cash crops as live stock feed. 

(c) A study of the herbicides in connection with cash crops, 

(d) Cultural methods and crop rotation of cash crops in the 
district. 

(e) Fertilizers, cultural methods and rotations in the production 
of early potatoes, 

NORTHERN ONTARIO 

The assistance program for settlers in Northern Ontario was 
inaugurated in 1946. Under this policy assistance is given in: 

(a) Clearing Land. 

(b) Breaking Land, 

(c) Drainage. 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 



C-10 



(d) Drilling Wells. 

(e) Transportation of Live Stock. 

(f) Purchase of Potato graders and power sprayers and dusters. 

(g) Establishment of regional veterinarians. 
LIVE STOCK BRANCH 

1. Staff has been increased as new projects initiated. 

2. Projects include: 

(a) Artificial Insemination Clubs have been organized covering 
the Province from East to West. The Artificial Insemination 
Act for 1947 was the first of its kind in Canada, 

(b) Establishing of co-operating farms re cost of production 
of hogs and sheep. 

(c) Establishment of the Beef Bull Sale in 1949. 

(d) Dairy Herd Improvement Associations started in 1949, now 
number 44. 

(e) Feeder Cattle Sales organized on Manitoulin Island and 
in Algoma District, 

(f) Assistance given to Warble Fly Control, 

(g) Advanced Registry Policy for Beef Cattle, 
(h) Beef-Pasture project. 

(i) Pig Hatchery project. 
FARM ECONOMICS BRANCH 

This new branch was organized in 1948 to study costs and 
efficiency of farm products. Studies have been undertaken either in 
co-operation with special groups or in co-operation with other branches 
concerned with projects from which it is possible to obtain data 
useful for studying costs. Studies undertaken to date, with the 
number of farmers co-operating in giving data, are listed in table 
below: 



Take "C" 



March 29, 1951 



G-ll 



STUDY 








NUMBER OF 
CO-OPERATORS 


Com for canning 










171 


Peas for canning 










181 


Tomatoes for canning 










175 


Commercial Late Potatoes 










70 


Hogs 










55 


Daily Cattle 










150 


Dairy Herd Improvement As; 


sociation 


Members 




775 


THE AGRICULTUR/lL REPRESENTATIVES 


BRANCH 







As the research work of the Department has expanded, Extension 
Work has also widened its scope in order to translate the results 
of research and assist the farmers in putting this information into 
practice. At the same time new policies instituted by other Branches 
have required additional work on the part of the extension staff. 
Such are the Dairy Herd Improvement Policy and the Artificial Breeding 
Program for cattle. As a result additions to the staff have been 
necessary. There are Assistant Agricultural Representatives in most 
counties now. In addition, the Fieldmen's Services have been extended 
as follows: 

(a) Three fruit and vegetable fieldmen are now employed, 

(b) Two farm machinery fieldmen were added to the staff in 1950. 
These men work in co-operation with the Agricultural 
Engineering Department at the Ontario Agricultural College 
to provide instruction for the Junior Farmer "Farm Equipnent 
Project", the "Boys Tractor Maintenance Club Project", Farm 
Machinery Short Courses and to give a general advisory 
service to farmers on Agricultural Engineering problems. 
Work with Jxmiors forms an important part of the activities 

of this Branch . This takes two forms . . , Boys and Girls Club Work and 
Jiinior Farmer Work. 



Takd "C" March 29, 1951 

C-12 

Boys and Girls Club Work developments since 1943 include: 

(a) Addition of two new club projects in 1950 — Boys Tractor 
Maintenance Clubs and Farm Forestry Clubs, 

(b) Development of local leaders in Club ViJork. Conferences 
for these leaders have been held and trips have been 
arranged for them in recognition of the leadership they 
are providing. 

(c) King's Guineas Class at the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair. 

JUNIOR FARI-IER DEVELOPMNTS 

(a) Organization of the Junior Farmers' Association of Ontaido 
in 1944 to co-ordinate all existing groups, 

(b) Promotion of leadership training through camps and Officers' 
Training Schools. 

(c) Promotion of Educational Projects, e.g. Conferences, Short 
Courses, Public Speaking Competitions, Provincial Choir 
Concert and Judging Competitions. 

(d) Promotion of exchange visits for Juniors between Provinces 
and Internationally. 

(e) Promotion of recreational projects e. g. Sports Days and 

Square Dance Festivals. 

The results of this work is showing up in a niimber of ways. 
Membership has grown from 3,500 in 1944 when the Provincial Association 
was organized to more than 11,000 in 1950. Also evidence of the juniors 
of past years going on to take their place as seniors in the community 
are to be found in many places. Former Junior Farmers are on the 
Boards of many Breed Associations and other Provincial and National 
Farm organizations as well as in county and local organizations and 
governments , 



i 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 

C-13 

One other major project of the Branch is that of Soil 
Improvement and Land Use, initiated in 1949. Projects carried out 
in 24 coiinties vdth the Agricultiiral Representative co-operating vdth 
local organizations. Programmes include: soil building projects, 
drainage demonstrations, fertility demonstrations, and educational 
programmes . 

VTOMEN'S INSTITUTE BRANCH 

Through this Branch the work of the local Institutes and 
the Provincial organization is given assistance and guidance. This 
is done through providing speakers, arranging conferences and giving 
instruction in various phases of homemaking. At the same time the 
Branch is responsible for the development of club work and the Junior 
Institutes which are affiliated with the Junior Farmers of Ontario. 
THE FRUIT BRANCH 

Major projects of this Branch instituted in the last seven 
years are: * 

(a) The fruit and vegetable inspection service has been very 
greatly expanded during the office of the present govern- 
ment. Formerly inspection work was carried on by the 
Dominion Department but more and more this work is now 
being handled by the Province, 

(b) Four highway inspection stations have been constructed and 
are operated during the season of the year when harvesting 
is in progress . 

(c) An apple orchard census was taken in the interests of the 
industry to reveal information pertaining to marketing, 
cultural trends, etc, 

(d) Annual acreage surveys are now made of the marsh areas at 
Thedford and Bradford and in certain highland areas. 

Oe) Improved methods of grading peas grown for processing has 
been studied and it may lead to government men doing the 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 



c-14 



grading of all peas purchased for processing. 

(f) Tomato grading has been introduced in Ontario. All 

tomatoes pixrchased for processing ai-e now purchased on 

grades determined by government men. 

The Co-operative Marketing Loan Act is alco administered 

by this Branch. The Act was passed in 1932. A list of 

the number and amount of the lor.ns ar^.ually since that 

time follows: 

LOANS MADE UNDER T.ffi Ct}-OPE°J TI^':i 
MARKETE.'G LOAN ACT 



Years 


Nxmiber of Loans 


Total erxunt of Loans Made 


1931-32 


8 


t? 130, 800 „ 00 


1933 


9 


102,noo,00 


1934 


1 


25; 000. 00 


1935 


3 


^3, '+00.00 


1936 


1 


2,500.00 


1937 


1 


9,000.00 


1938 


1 


:^, 000. 00 


1939 


3 


37,500.00 


1940 


2 


17,000.00 


1941 


1 


;,coo.oo 


1942 


1. 


5.000,00 
S 402,200.00 


1943 


1 


5,000.00 


1944 


11 


2';.9,C00.00 


1945 


14 


29;, 000. 00 


1946 


11 


114,000.00 


1947 


4 


41,000.00 


1948 


12 


283,000.00 


1949 


11 


1VG,OCO.OO 


1950 


5 


170,000.00 



,270 400,00 

$1,672,600.00 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 

c-15 

CROPS. SEEDS AND WEEDS BRMCH 

1. Crop Objectives: These were first established in 1944 with 
the Provincial objective of 200 million bushels of grain. 
Production was gradually encouraged until this oBjective was 
finally achieved in 1950. The 1951 objective has been set at 
250 million bushels. 

2. H ay and Pasture Demonstrations: Begun in 1944 - 2,295 
demonstration hay and pasture plots of 3 to 5 acres each have 
been laid down on 712 farms in every county and district of 
the Province, 

3. Field Days: To demonstrate crop work, drainage, the growing 
and preservation of fodder and pasture, and conservation field 
days have been held on these various subjects. The first was 
the Grassland Day in Oxford County in 1947. 

4. Under the new Weed Control Act the efficiency of the weed 
inspectors has been increased and the cost of administration 
decreased. 

5. High Yield Clubs: These are organized under the Crop Improve- 
ment Associations and have served to focus attention on cultural 
practices which result in better yields. 

6. Beef Pasture Improvement Project: A joint project with the 
Live Stock Branch, begun in 1950 to determine the best methods 
of increasing the carrying capacity of pastures in order to 
produce more beef, 

7. Bacterial Ring Rot Inspection: At the request of producers 
the legislation covering this disease was instituted. The 
inspection has made it possible to keep this dangerous potato 
disease under control. 

8. While this organization came into being in 1938, its scope 
and activity has broadened greatly since 1943. During the 
past seven years the Seed Growers Section has been added and 



Take "C" March 29, 1951 

C-16 

13 new comniittees have been established. In 1950, 411 demonstra- 
tion projects were carried on by the 56 branches, 
AGRICULTURAL MP HCRTICULTURAL SOCIETIES 

1. This Branch administers the Community Centres Act of 1949. 
Under it, grants have been paid on projects as follows: 

57 Community H alls. ^\ 

54 Athletic Fields. 

69 Skating Arenas. 

12 Outdoor Skating Rinks. 

29 Combined Arenas and Halls, 

2. Commercial Production Features at Fairs: Special grants are 
given to encourage these exhibits of commercial producers of 
crops which are important in the area covered by any parti- 
cular Fair. 

3. District Plowing Matches: Grants for such matches given where 
four or more local matches combine to hold a district match. 

4. Horticult-ural Projects: (Sponsored throiigh the Ontario Horti- 
cultural Association) 

(a) School Forestry Competitions initiated in 1945. 

(b) Wild Flower Essay Competition initiated in 1947. 

(c) Food Parcels to Britain. 

(d) Maple Seedlings provided to the Imperial War Graves 
Commission for planting in cemeteries in Britain and 

on the continent containing graves of Canadisin War Dead. 

DISTRIBUTION OF FORAGE SEEDS 
- INaUDING GRASSES AND CLOVERS 

The Ontario Department of Agriculttire distributed new and 
improved strains of forage crops from the seed farm for the first 
time in 1948, the amount being 500 lbs. The amount of seed which will 
be distributed during the year 1951 is approximately 6,500 lbs. 



xciKe G" March 29, 19i>l 

c-17 

In the year 1950, some 96 farmers grew this seed, these farmers 
being located in 32 counties and districts in the province, 

DAIRY BRANCH \x^ 

The chief work of this Branch is concerned with the Admini- 
Ftration of the Dairy Products Act. This includes inspection of 
creameries and cheese factories, milk and cream testing, grading of 
milk and cream, instruction of producers in improvement of milk and 
cream on the farm, and quality improvement of dairy products generally. 

Creamery and cheese factory competitions organized through the 
co-operation of the Dairy Branch, the factory operators and the pro- 
ducers has resulted in considerable improvement in the quality of 
cream and milk and of the processed products. This is indicated by 
the fact that in 1943 B>9% of the cream sold was second grade and by 
1950 this had been reduced to 4.5^. During the same period the 
percentage of first grade butter produced in Ontario was raised from 
61^ to 88^. 

Further encouragement to the improvement 'of cream quality was 
provided in the amendments to the regulations allowing the payment 
of more than one cent premium for special grade cream. 

Preliminary work on the sediment testing of milk was begun in 
1944. Sufficient progress has been made that in 1950 legislation was 
passed to provide for the grading of milk by flavour and sediment 
test at all plants. 

Work was started in 1943 on testing for extraneous matter in 
cheese. Considerable improvement has been made in this direction and 
this has opened the American market to Ontario cheese. 

Encouragement has been given to cheese factories to amalgamate 
in order to improve their set-up and equipment and make possible the 
establishment of better and more efficient production units. This 
change has taken place steadily. For example, in 1946-47, 15 amalgamations 



March 29tli, 1951. 
C-lS 

replaced 32 smaller plants in Eastern Ontario. ^ 

Tile storage and marketing of cheese has also been 

given attention and in 1950 a grant to the Ontario Cheese 

Producers Association assisted them in the building of a 

large cheese storage at Belleville which is now nearing 

completion. 

MARKETS BRANCH 

li This Branch administers the Farm Products Marketing 

Act as changed in 1946. There are now 16 Marketing Schemes 

covering 25 commodities operating under this legislation. 

The schemes in operation, the commodities covered and 

the year they were approved are as follows: 

(1) Asparagus Growers Marketing Scheme (1937). 

(2) Ontario Cheese Producers Marketing Scheme (1937). 

(3) Ontario Peach Growers Marketing Scheme (1937). 

(4) Ontario Pear, Plum and Cherry Growers Marketing 
Scheme (1938). 

(5) Ontario Seed Corn Growers Marketing Scheme (1942), 

(6) Ontario Sugar Beet Growers Marketing Scheme (1942). 

(7) Ontario Berry Growers Marketing Scheme (1944). This 
scheme combined raspberries with the strawberry 
Marketing Scheme established in 1938. 

(8) Ontario Bean Growers Marketing Scheme (1944) for 
white and yellow-eye dry beans. 

(9) Ontario Hog Producers Marketing Scheme (1946). 

(10) Ontario Cream Producers Marketing Scheme (1947). 

(11) Ontario Vegetable Growers Marketing Scheme (1947). 
This Scheme amalgamated the Tomato Growers Marketing 
Scheme of 1938 and the Green Pea and Sweet Com 
Growers Marketing Scheme of 1945. In 1948 green 
and wax beans were added to the Scheme and in 1949 



J 



March 8 9th, 1951. 



C-19 



cabbage, .carrots and beets were added. 

(12) Ontario Grape Growers Marketing Scheme (1947), 

(13) Southwestern Ontario New Potato Growers Marketing 
Scheme (1948), 

(14) Ontario Soybean Growers Marketing Scheme (1948), 

(15) Ontario Winter Celery Growers Marketing Scheme (1949) 

(16) Southern Ontario Honey Producers Marketing 
Scheme, (1950), 

2, The other major project of the Branch has to do with 
the Ontario Food Terminal, The Farmers Market Section of 
the Terminal will come into operation in May of this year, 

STATISTICAL INFORMATION ON ONTARIO AGRICULTURE 
AGGREGATE VALUE OF TOTAL FARM PRODUCTION IN ONTARIO 

Year 1949 Year 1950 

Value of Total Value of Total 

Production Production 

Wheat 44,592,000 51,612,000 

Oats 56,134,000 76,949,000 

Barley 8,082,000 10,823,000 

Rye 2,960,000 2,598,000 

Dry Beans 5,239,000 4,614,000 

Dry Peas.... 966,000 849,000 

Soy. Beans 5,887,000 7,598,000 

Buckwheat 1,766,000 1,706,000 

Mixed Grains 39,328,000 52,716,000 

Flaxseed,,,,,,,,, 647,000 791,000 

Shelled Corn 16,2;44,000 22,863,000 

Potatoes 21,341,000 17,574,000 

Turnips, mangels 8,160,000 8,027,000 



March 29 th, 1951. 



C-.20 



Alfalfa, Hay and Clover 103,720,000 113,493,000 

Fodder Corn 24,244,000 23,846,000 

Sugar Beets 4,630,000 5,445,000 

TOTAL ABOVE FIELD CROPS 343,940,000 401,504,000 

Clover and Grass Seed 2,372,000 2,000,000 

Tobacco...,, 55,592,000 48,705,000 

Fibre Flax , 263,000 250,000 

Fruit 19,056,000 21,000,000 

Vegetables 36,487,000 32,500,000 

Greenhouse Products 3,686,000 3,400,000 

and FjLoriculture 

Cattle and Calves , 139,573,000 160,000,000 

Sheep and Lambs 4,039,000 3,500,000 

Hogs 165,690,000 165,000,000 

Horses (Change in Inventory -2,150,000 -2,000,000 

Poultry and Eggs 97,203,000 93,000,000 

Butter 41,676,000 36,007,000 

Cheese 22,686,000 17,136,000 

Milk and Other Milk Products 85,186,000 86,500,000 

Wool 590,000 650,000 

Honey '. 2,004,000 1,758,000 

Maple Products l,...-;3,000 1,900,000 

Fur Farming 1,973,000 1,620,000 

Forest Products 30,187,000 30,000,000 

GRAND TOTAL: 1,051,806,000 1,104,430,000. 

JOTE:- The figures for 1950 are a preliminary estimate and subject 
to later revision. 



C-21 

INCREASE IN FARM PRICES OF SOME PRODUCTS 
2- ■ to 1950 

Comparing farm prices in the year 1940 with those 
of 1950 we find that in the Province of Ontario the follow- 
ing Chang estook place: 

Strawberries increased by 228.1% 

Raspberries " " 254,2% 

Hogs " ♦». 243.8% 

Beef Cattle " " 267.9% 

Milk Cows " " 226.7% 

Calves " " 213.9% 

Burley Tobacoo " »' 145.9% 

Butter Fat " " 120,6% 

Cheese Milk " " 124.5% 

Wheat " " 150.9% 

Honey " " 98.0% 

Barley " " 163.1% 

Eggs " " 71.4% 

Oats " " 140.6% 

( Fluid Milk ) " " 

(Toronto Milk Shed ) 95,4% 

Tomatoes •♦ " 103.7% 

Apples « " 107.4% 

Plums « »f 37.1% 

MILK PRODUCTION IN ONTARIO COMPARED vITH SOME COUNTRIES 
(Annual production in gallons per capita) 

Ontario 125 gallons 

United Kingdom 33 " 

United States 77 " 



t.O /:■.:; 



.■ - » ♦ p .■• t • O i.' 



Mar oil aytii;^ 1951. 



C- 2.2 



EGG PRODUCTION IN ONTARIO COMPARED vJITH SOME COUNTRIES X 
(Annual production per capita) 



Ontario ..v., 395 eggs 

Canada ...... c 338 » 

United Kingdom ........ 94 " 

United States... ...... ., 381 " 

Netherlands 118 " 

DenTnark 389 " 



PIGS SLAUGHTERED IN QNT .,\PI O COMPARED WITH SOME COUNTRIES X 
iNuinb er slauglitared per thousand persons) 



Ontario ....... 

Canadc. .= .-.,. 
United Eincdorn 
United States. 
Nether J ands. , . 
Denmark - , 



• . « • 



O 9 . . . ■> 



676 Head 
577 " 
39 " 
487 " 
104 " 
472 " 



X - Based on figures recently released by the Commonwealth 
Economic Committee. 



EXPORTS OF F OLSTEI N BREEDING STOCK. 1950 

Total exports of Holstein Breeding Stock, 1950 17,197 

Exports to Continental U.S. A, (30 States 16,543 

To Countries outside Continental U.S.A. 654 

Countries outside Continental U.S.- A. to which cattle were 

shipped: 

Ecuador, Cuba, ColaTibia, Porto Rico, Central America, 
Bermuda, Bahamas, Uruguay. Guatemala, Brazil and Mexico. 



March 29th, 1951 



C-2 3 

EXPORT OF HOLSTEIN BREEDING STOCK 
19 5 



To give some comparison, Great Britain has always 
been the home of the Shorthorn cattle and has always ex- 
ported them to other countries for foundation stock. 
In 1950, the total export of Shorthorns from Great 
Britain was 504, shipped to 13 different countries. 

A single cattleman in Peel County of our province 

shipped 528 head of dairy breeding stofik in one year to 

thirteen countries. 

Total exports of Holstein Breeding Stock, 1950 
( from Canada ) 17 , 197 

75^ of these cattle were exported from Ontario 

32^ of the Holstein cattle registered in the 

equivalent of numbers were exported from this 

province in 1950. 

Exports to Continental U.S.A. (30 States, .. .16,543 

To Countries outside Continental U.S.A 654 

Ecuador 

Cuba 

Colombia 

Porto Rico 

Central America 

.Bermuda 

Bahamas 

Uraguay 

Gaatamala 

Brazil 

Mexico 



i 



C-24 

The history of Ontario Agrtrjulture over the past 
seven years has been one of increased and improved pro- 
d-action. As a result of sciehtific developments and 
better farming our farmers have been producing much more 
grain per acre, grazing more cattle per acre and have put 
up more hay with a higher protein content per acre than 
ever. This increase in production has made it possible 
to feed a greater n\imber of livestock and poultry. 

At the same time, the production per acre of 
potatoes has been increasing and the output of fruits 
and vegetables has been at a very high level. 

In Gulliver's Travels, Jonathan Swift said: 

"And he gave it as his opinion that 
whoever could make two ears of corn 
or two blades of grass, to grow upon 
a spot of ground where only one grew 
before, would deseT*ve better of manking 
and do more essent ' 1 service to his 
country than the whole race of politicians 
put together." 
Our Ontario farmers have been doing just this. 
They have been making two blades of grass grow where 
only one grew before and have been producing two ears 
of corn where only one grew before. At the same time 
they have been paying attention to the quality of those 
blades of grass and earB of corn with the result that both 
quantity and quality of food produced has been improved. 
The have been and are g wing two better blades of grass 
where only one grew before. 



Take "C" 



March 29, 1951 



C-2 5 



Average Annual Prices Received by Ontario Farmers 



Fall Wheat . . , . ^ per bus . 
Spring Wheat .. ^ per bus. 

Oats , . ^ per bus . 

Barley ^ per bus . 

Peas, dry ^ per bus* 

Beans, dry .... per bus. 

Rye ^ per bus . 

Buckwheat . , , , * ^ per bus . 
Corn (shelled). ^ per bus. 
Hay and Clover. $ per ton 
Potatoes ^ per cvrt. , 



Year 


Year 


Year 


Year 


Year 


Feb. 15 


1919 


1929 


1939 


1949 


1950 


1951 


237*2 


124.0 


64.0 


177.0 


165.0 


177*2 


240.9 


125.2 


66.0 


177.0 


165.0 




97.7 


62.4 


34.0 


84.0 


82.0 


92.1 


145.8 


76.5 


46.0 


125.0 


124.0 


132.0 


263.9 


163.0 


177.0 


247.0 


300.0 




4.00 


3.03 


2.25 


3.32 


4.80 




159.1 


97.1 


58.0 


133.0 


140.0 


145.2 


140.7 


83.2 


52.0 


121.0 


119.0 




162.3 


100.2 


55.0 


130.0 


155.0 




22.68 


11.28 


7.61 


21.15 


18.00 




275.3 


180.0 


113.4 


224.0 


192.0 





Average Price of Live Stock per 100 Pounds at Toronto 







Year 
1919 


Year 
1929 


Year 
1939 


Week Ending 
March 8, 1951 


Steers, good .. 


1 per cwt. 


13.06 


10.16 


6.89 


32.25 


Hogs, dressed . 


$ per cwt. 


26.11 


16.50 


11.88 


34.48 


Sheep, good . . . 


$ per cwt. 


10.37 


6.52 


4.49 


21.00 


Lambs, good ... 


$ per cwt. 






9.47 


34.00 



Take "C" 



March 29, 1951 



C-215 



Dealer's Buying Prices. Delivered At Toronto 

March 1 March 1 March 1 March 1 March 15 

1919 1929 1939 1951 1951 

Creamery Butter ^ per lb. 49 - 50 42 - 42j 22 7li - 73 82 - 83 

Eggs, top grade i per doz. 41-42 42-43 20| 52 - 51 - 52 



(TAKE "D" FOLLOWS) 



Mar. 29. 



D-1 

MR. DENNISON: I.r. Chairman, on Vote 1,1 
would like to ask the Hon. Minister of Agriculture 
(Mr. Kennedy) if there i^^a service branch responsible 
for preventing the outbreak of disease? I presume 
the province of Ontario does some checking in regard 
to nursery stock brought into this province, or is 
that dominion? 

MR. KENNEDY: Dominion, purely. 

MR. DENIIISCN: Let me point out a danger, 
I think it v;as mentioned by the hon. member for 
Dovercourt (Mr. Park) the city of Toronto are bringing 
in Dutch maple trees for University Avenue. In view 
of the fact that the Dutch elm disease is such a 
dangerous thing in the United States, and probably 
will wipe out the elm trees in our generation, I 
wonder if the Department should not interest itself 
in that matter a little bit, 

MR. KENNEDY: V/e have some people working 
with Ottawa, sending them down to Eastern Ontario, 
where that elm disease is, every summer. We have kept 
it in check so far. 

MR. ISLEY: I wonder if the Hon. Minister (Mr. 
Kennedy) could explain an item under special educational 
campaigns. 

MR. KENNEDY: What Vote? 

MR. ISLEY: Vote 1, Item 4. What do you 
accomplish in that special educational campaign? 

M. KENNEDY: We advertise in all the farm 
journals. It costs sjjS,000. We have teachers, invol- 
ving quit^ an expense, going out to different schools. 



J 



Mar. 29 



D-2 



"J'e have the Ontario Research Foundation. We pay for 
that. We also pay for the pamphlets we get out in 
respect of that. Those pamphlets cost about twice as 
much as ever before, Kost come from Guelph, as you 
know. 

MISS MacPKAlL: lur. Chairman, my regard for 
the Hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) is well 
known, but, in this case, I think he lost track, having 
regard to the statement of the Hon. Minister (Mr. 
Kennedy) with respect to per capita. Take Denmark, 
Belgium and Holland, little countries like one of our 
counties, with crowded populations; they could not 
possibly grov/ as much per capita. I know the Hon. 
Minister (Mr. Kennedy) is an honest man, I'/hat does he 
have to say about that? 

MR. KENNEDY: I said "For every man, woman 
and child", whereas I should have said, "Per one 
thousand." V/e have always heard that every farmer in 
Denmark has a lot of pigs, pigs all over; the same as 
Holland and England. The fact of the matter is, they 
may have a few pigs, while one of our farmers may have 
several hundred or thousand pigs. Per capita, we are 
producing more than any country of which I know, 

MR. ELLIS: On Vote 4, I v/ould like to point 
out that there were wires received yesterday in the 
House, by, I believe, every hon. member, and sent by 
the Ontario Elevators Association. I do not know whether 
I am being honoured or discredited by this, but I 
believe I am being honoured. Apparently the statement 
I made was in respect to the Marketing Act. I said that 



Mar. 29 



D-3 



in my opinion the farmers should have the right to 
pool under our present Marketing act. I believe that 
is what they are complaining against. 

I would ask of the Hon. Minister of Agricul- 
ture (Mr. Kennedy) , I believe that he has some very 
definite ideas on pooling, what is his attitude 
in respect of pooling provided for under the present 
Marketing Act? 

MR. KENNEDY: I'/e will have the Marketing Act 
Bill in to-morrow; probably Monday, 

MR. ELLIS: Is the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
in favour of pooling? 

MR. KENNEDY: I think I told you about my 
co-operative movements while I was Minister. I cannot 
see anything else. I am all for the farmers looking 
after their own business the best way they can do it. 

MR. FOSTER: Is the Farm Products Marketing 
Act coming in as a bill before it goes to the Committee 
on Agriculture? Will we have an opportunity of dis- 
cussing it before it goes to the Committee? 

M. KENNEDY: Definitely. 

MR. ISLEY: Under Vote 1 I see there is a new 
item, Rural Telephone Board, 4^100,000. I wonder if 
the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) could give us an 
explanation on that item. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister) : Did 
I not give the hon. member for 'ifaterloo South (Mr, 
Isley) a full explanation of that yesterday? 

MR. ISLEY: I was not here. 



D-4 

HON. LESLIES. FROST (Prime Minister): I will 
get the hon. member for V/aterloo South (Mr. Isley) 
a copy of Hansard and send it over to him, 

MR. V/ISMER: On that item, I think it says the 
bill provides for it. 

MR. FROST: No. This 4^100,000 is set aside 
by the O.T.A. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: It does not say O.T.A. here. 

Vote No.l agreed to. 

On Vote 2. 

MR. McEWING: V/ith respect to the grant to 
the agricultural and horticultural societies, is it 
increased all along the line, or ife it special? 

MR. KENNEDY: An increase along the line. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Does the Hon. Minister (Mr. 
Kennedy) care to make any report about grants under 
the Community Centres Act? I will not pursue it, if 
the figures are not here. 

MR. KENNEDY: I think I have them. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I think it would be interesting 
to know how many community centres you have had during 
the last two years, 

MR. KENNEDY: Grants were paid on 69 Skating 
Arenas, 5B Community Halls, 4^ athletic Fields and 12 
Out-door Rinks, 

(Take E follows.) 



March 29, 1951 



E-1 

MR. McEWING: Pretty close to your guess. 

MR. GRUMMETT: Could the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
tell us how many hundred-year-old agricultural societies there 
are in Ontario? 

M. KENNEDY; Not this year. 

MR. L. E. ^./ISMER (Riverdale): Returning to this rural 
telephone B oard, I wonder if we could have an explanation of 
what is the difference between the money which can be paid out 
of the Consolidated Revenue fund on a vote of the Legislature 
v/hich is not statutory, a' vote which proceeds out of the 
powers granted by the Act, which would be statutory. Under 
section 3, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council is the body who 
will authorize monies to be spent. 

Referring to item 9 of the vote, I think there is some 
discrepancy here, 

MR. KENNEDY: If you look in the public accounts, you 
will see the difference. Where someone is appointed and wants 
to enforce the Act, it is always done by Order-in-Council, 
But sometimes you have to spend money fast. For instance, you 
may have to weed out ragweed in northern Ontario. I had to serid 
up some machines there to get it under control. The minister 
has to do things like that sometimes. If you look here you 
will see exactly how I spend this money. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Was this done by warrant? 

MR. KENNEDY: No, I have a vote, but some of these 
funds are by authority of the Lieut enant-Governor-in-Council,, 

MR. Vi^ISMER: The Hydro is putting in a telephone system, 
V'/hy is it charged to the Department of Agriculture? 

MR. FROST: Because Hydro is not in the estimates here 



March 20, 1951. 



E-2 
by any monies paid, by hydro is paid through the department. 

MR. KENNEDY: And they v;ant the next hon. minister to 
look after that. 

Vote agreed to. 

Vote 3: Agricultural Representative Branch. 

^^' I-BA5CTER: Under Vote 3, agricultural brancji. In 
looking over the public accounts for 1949-50, I note that the 
agricultural representative in my part of the country are re- 
ceiving approximately ^2,739. each. I was just wondering if 
there ha s been any increase in recent years in the salaries of 
these officials. I do not see any reference this year to a 
possible bonus. In our agricultural representatives we have 
some of the finest people that can be found in the province of 
Ontario; and with the calls made upon them by so many important 
organizations, junior farmers and junior institutes and the 
rest, I do not how these men have any home life at all, "^hey 
are out all hours of the day and all hours of the night . .1 
only hope that provision is being nade that their lariGS shall 
be commensurate with the increased cost of living. 

MR. KENNEDY: There is an increase, and also an increase 
in their numbers, depending how fast we can get gradiiates from 
the college. 

MR. BAXJTERrtl am told that the salaries are not sufficient 
to induce these boys when they leave college to go into the 
agricultural representative branch. These men are asked to 
do some fantastic jobs; they are out night and day; and it 
is only the man who has a love for the soil who would think 
of taking on the job. I know agricultural representatives 
and I was recently at a dinner for our good representative for 
the county of V/aterloo. I do not think these men are bsing 
paid the amount of money they should receive for the number 



March 29, 1951. 



E-3 



ox" hours they are expected to work and the various organizations 
they are required to serve. Is it not true that we would have 
more men in the field if the salary were attractive? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. We shall have to make the salaries 
larger to attract the men we want . 

MR, McEV'ING: Have not the public been demanding of these 
men too many services which are outside their own field? 

MR. KENNEDY; V/e aire trying to stop that. 

IVE. McEJING: I know . what one agricultural represen- 
tative is doing beyond his agricultural work, in connection with 
service clubs and the Red Cross. 

M. KENNEDY: I'e are trying to stop that kind of thing. 

MR. McEWING: It seems to me that to a large extent that 
could be cut out. There is a big field in purely agricultural 
work. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: To follow up what the hon. member for 
Wellington North {TS'lr. McEwing) said, it seems to me it is very 
difficult to cut that out unless the agricultural represcr.^.Rti'.ve 
brrnc!i takes a very firm line there. The position is this, as 
I see it. The agricultural representatives live and work among 
their own people. They are something like unfortunate rural 
ministers; if they are asked to do something, it is difficult 
to say"No"., and it is even more difficult to draw the line be- 
tween those to whom one is going to say "No'" and those to whom 
one is to say"Yes". 

MR. FROST: How about . , "••=•;•. x'liament? 

M. JOLLIFFE: Of course, they are bears for punish- 
ment; but they have to say "No" occasionally and take their 
chances. But I do not see how the representatives can be 
rescued from the predicament they are now in unless there are 



March 29, 1951. 



E-4 



orders- iii the question from "on high". The hon. member for 

Wellington North (Mr. McEwing) touched on the matter rather 

lightly. The fact is that some of these representatives are 

sedretaries, office boys and messengers, for an incredible 

number of organizations; they are being asked to a whole lot 

of things they should not be asked to do and which the poor 

devils find it difficult to refuse, because influential people 

in the county want them to do these things. It seems to me 

that in this day and age, when many of our young farmers have 

a high school education, or hold a diploma from Guelph, and 

in 
when many of them are /these junior farmers organizations , 

some of the secretarial duties of local organizations could 

be taken over by these young people. A lot of these young 

peoole have had a good education. 

MR. KENNEDY: fhat is right. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Unfortunately the condition has grown 
up that the work should be loaded on the agricultural represen- 
tative. He has an office and a typewriter, so it is ppt upon 
him. I do not think that is good enough. I suggest to the 
hon. Minister (llr . Kennedy) that his director of extension 
will have to cut down on this practice. My observation of 
the representatives is that most of them like the work. They 
would not stay in it if they did not; they will certainly 
not make a fortunate out of it. But what is to them the 
least attractive phase of their work, and the part which is 
driving many of them to exhaustion, is the amount of detailed 
duties of the kind I have mentioned which they have been 
loaded with. It is not fair to them, and it means that they 
will not be able to give the service it was intended they 
should give to our farmers, technically, and in the matter 



E-5 

of leadership, 

MISS AGNES MACPHAIL (York East): Just before the 
hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) , may I say that surely the 
classical example of overworked representatives is 'Tommy 
Co- per in Grey. I used to live in Grey, and I know a lot 
about his activities. He does not work hard; he runs hard. 
It is a wonder that he did not break his neck years ago, 
considering the way he drives. I would not risk taking a 
drive with him -- ; I would rather walk, -- it is safer. It 
is a shame, the amount of things he has to do. He is secre- 
tary of everything in the county of Grey. It may be there 
exceptions, but I do not happen to know of any. 

MR. OLIVER: Before the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
replies to my hon. friend (Mr. Jolliffe), would he tell the 
House what increases have taken place in the past two or three 
years in the salaries of the representatives. I mean, what 
is the average percentage of increases? 

MR. KENNEDY: 50 per cent, |l600, a year. Three 
years ago the maximum was $3,000,; now these men are paid 
$4,600. All along the line there have been quite substantial 
increases. I agree that our representatives love their work. 
I had a drive with Tom Cooper around those hills, I wanted 
to stop, get out and walk, but I could not slow him down, 
I suggested that I would like another car and another driver. 
He said, "Yf u will have to take it just the same way as 
some of our assistants take it when they are out with us". 
He named several men, one of whom iswas an hon. member. We 
have already put a stop to some of these additional activi- 
ties . 



March 29, 1951 



MISS MACPHAIL: 'Tommf is getting old. 

MR. KENNEDY: I hope through this junior farmer 
work we shall get some young boys to take on these secre- 
tarial duties. It is training for them; they should do it 
whenever possible, 

MR. OLIVER: In connection with item 7 of vote 3, 
would the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) tell the House what 
has been done with the $50,000. "Grants and Expenses in 
Connection with Soil Improvement and Land Use Projects". 
What is the pattern followed by the Department in connection 
with the expenditure of that money? 

MR. KENNEDY; We pay 50 per cent of the county 
council expenditures, and I think that work has been under- 
taken in the counties of Peterboro, Carlton, Essex, Leeds, 
Grenville, Grey^ Haldimand, Halton, Kent, Leeds, Lennox 
Addington, Prince Edward, Simcoe, Stormont, Waterloo and 
V/entworth and other counties; for 1950, Brant and Lambton. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Is this the item to which the 
Department assist sin the New Hamburg demonstration? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: It is this item? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. 

m. JOLLIFFE; Could the hon. Minister (ifr. 

S.TG 

Kennedy) say if any similar projects Contemplated for the 
future? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. We can make no general 
policy that will apply to all the province of Ontario, so 
we say to the county committees in eacti county, get the 
farmers together and decide upon some project which you 



E-7 

think will aid in conservation in the county, and we will 
match the county contribution, — $2,000, to your |j2,000., 
for as many years as you want to go on with that project." 

It has to comply with what we think is right, but 
as yet we have never refused any application, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: V/hat is there that is comparable to 
the New Hamburg demonstration? 

m. KENNEDY: None exactly like that. Each county 
is a little different. Peterboro has plowing and forestry; 
other counties have other projects. Each county adopts what 
it thinks is most important for itself. Kent wants soil 
improvement. They say that their need is for grasses to go 
right down into the ground. The Dominion government has an 
experimental farm in their district which operates in con- 
junction with them and with ourselves, and work is being done 
on grasses to put fertility back into the soil, 

M. ISLEY: I notice that the grant is for ^ .0,00'-'^ 
That has been the same sum for three years. If there is a 
demand for more of these projects, I assume that more money 
will be included in your estimates, 

MR. KENNEDY: That is right. 

MR. ISLEY: Then I presume there is no further 
demand for this type of industry? 

M. KENNEDY: It is going ahead. This spring 
we are to have a general meeting of all counties to go 
over the work done by all the counties, and we want those 
that are not in the scheme to come around with some project. 
So we are having a general meeting, to be attended by 
leading farmers of the county. 

MR. ISLEY: I think that is a splendid idea. 
I would like to say that I think these projects are of 
great educational value to the people in the district, and 



March 29, 1951. 



E-S 



that there should be more of them, because they provide an 
example so the farmer can go and take a look for himself. 
Probably he could not read about it and keep it in mind, 
but when he goes out and sees one of these projects he 
realizes what is being done. I know that in our county 
there are a lot of people who think we should have farm 
projects, not just along the lines of soil conservation but 
in other directions; for instance, farm porlds are talked 
about a good deal today. I believe that farm ponds are 
another way of conserving water. There should be somewhere 
in each county a pond constructed and publicized so that 
people would go and see it; and if there is literature avail- 
able as to the cost of that project I think there would be 
more ponds in the county. 

MR. McEV/ING: If the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
lacks any suggestions, all he needs to do is to look up 
the Conservation Committee's report. There is certainly a 
great field there indicated in that report; and I suggest 
that if as much is to be purchased in connection with these 
projects as was bought last year, necessarily the vote will 
have to be increased. 

MR. KEMNEDY: I think it is reasonable certain 
that Ottawa will give us grants this year for farm ponds. 
They have a bill ready for that purpose, and I believe it 
will be presented this year, and that it will be along the 
same lines as those which have been followed in the three 
prairie provinces of the west. If the Bill is passed, we 
shall mvVet our proportion of the expense and encourage 
this work in every way possible. I fully agree with what 
the hon. member for Wellington North (Mr. Mcgwing) says; 
he is quite right. 



March 29, 1951. 

E-9 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I am glad to hear the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Kennedy) say that, because for some time some of us 
have felt that it is somewhat anomalous that the prairie 
provinces should receive what they have received — much as 
they needed it, and i .■ the Maritime provinces to receive 
what they have been getting, while Ontario has received 
nothing of the kind. I hope the hon. Minister 's (Mr. 
Kennedy) prediction is right and that parliament will take 
adtion on these lines, because it is long overdue. Probably 
we could persuade the hon. member for Grey South (Mr. Oliver) 
to agree with us, about that. 

MR. KENNEDY: I am informed by the highest authori- 
tieis that that is coming. 

MR. McEl/ING: Should you not increase the amount? 

MR. KENNEDY: No. I that, with assistance, from 
Ottawa, it will be adequate. 

MR. FOSTER: I should like to revert to item 5 of 
vote 3, "County Agricultural Committees, Travelling and Other 
Expenses". Last year $10,000. was included in the estimates 
for this purpose. This year the amount is down to $9,000. 
As one who is interested in the forming of these county 
committees originally, I should like to ask if they are 
passing out of the picture in the province of Ontario, or 
how many are expected to be in operation. 

ffi. KENNEDY: Soon after we passed legislation, 
the federation took the matter up and formed county commi- 
ttees. I agree that they should do the work without 
government assistance, and we are encouraging them to 
proceed without government assistance. That is the reason 
the amount has been cut down. I think it is right that 



E-10 

they should be an independent body. 

MR. NIXON: This was just Mr. Drew's cockeyed 
scheme, anyway. 80 you might as well forget it. 

M. KENNEDY: Don't you pick on me. 

MR. NIXON: V/e won't blame you for that one. 



(TAKE "F" FOLLOWS) 



F-1 



On Vote 4. 

I'R. MacLEOD: On Vote 4, Mr. Cjiairman, I think 
this might be the appropriate item with respect to 
which to direct a question to the Hon, Minister (Mr, 
Kennedy) . In early November there was an announcement 
in one of the evening papers, I think it was the 
Toronto Daily Star, dealing v/ith the surplus crop in 
the Holland Marsh. The Hon. Minister of Agriculture 
(Mr. Kennedy) is quoted as saying that there Were 
265,000 bags of onions out in the open on the Marsh 
at that time. The Hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr, 
Kennedy) is also quoted as saying that they were 
selling those onions at a dollar for three ba^s when 
it cost the growers hI>1.50 per bag to produce them. 
Then the item goes on to say, quoting the Hon. Minister 
(Mr. Kennedy) : 

"On account of the heavy rains, crops 
were almost doubled in potatoes, carrots 
and other vegetables all over the province." 
At that time, apparently the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
undertook to do two things. First, to try and find 
storage space for the 265,000 bags of onions, and 
secondly, to t ry and find a market for them in the 
West Indies or in some of the Caribbean countries, 
I think we would all be interested to learn what 
happened to those onions, whether the Hon. Minister 
(Mr. Kennedy) was able to find storage space for them, 
and, more particularly, whether the Hon. Minister (Mr. 
Kennedy) was able to find a market for them. 



Mar. 29. 



F-2 



MR. KENNEDY: V/e stored them out at the 
Toronto Exhibition Grounds. If you come in any- 
morning, you will see them there. V/e supplied the 
space for them, but they had to put them in and look 
after them and sell them. «e had nothing to do with 
that . Then we loaned them some money under our Co- 
operative Marketing Act so that they could dehydrate 
a great number of onions. If they had guessed right, 
it might have been all right, but unfortunately the 
Egyptian onions come in much cheaper because of low 
Egyptian labour. They did not get a market for all 
of the onions. While heavy rains made heavy crops, 
it also brought disease amongst the crops. Some of 
those we thought we could not sell have been scarce 
because they went bad in the field from too much 
rain. 

riR. MacLEOD: V/ould it not have been a good 
idea for the Department of the Government to have 
compensated the farmers by making the surplus onions 
available to institutions, for instance? 

MR. KENNEDY: There is a bill in Ottawa 
which provides for that. They Ji^ve st>200,000,000 
down at Ottav/a to cover that. 

MR. MacLEOD: Instead of having those onions 
lying down at the Exhibition Grounds where they may 
finally rot away, would it not be a good idea to 
provide all the institutions, the hospitals, the 
homes for the aged and so on, with onions out of 
that surplus? Why let them rot? 

MR. DENT: I suggested that he send them down 



Mar . 29 



F-3 

to Mitch Hepburn. He would market them all right. 

MR. MacLEOD: Do you think we should permit 
265,000 bags of onions to rot? 

MR. DENT: I think it is disgraceful. 
. liR. MacLEOD : What do you think we should do 
about it? 

MR. DENT: I am quite sure the Hon. Minister 
did all he could to help these people market their 
onions. I think anyone who grows onions without a 
market is doing it at his o^vn risk -- just like you 
go to the races, bet on the wrong horse, lose and you 
are out of luck. That is the way I feel about the 
onion growers — if they had been willing to work 365 
days of the year and milk cows they would have had 
some revenue. 

MR. DENNISON: On Item 4, I would like to 
draw the attention of the Hon, Minister to a certain 
situation which prevails in connection with the item 
whereby we spend ^17,500 to promote the organization 
among farmers of marketing methods and so on, 

here seems to be in the province of Ontario 
a great attack at the present time upon all these 
organizations of the farmer in attempting to market 
their own produce, I do not know why that should be 
and I do not know who is behind it, but I am sure 
every hon, member of this House must have received 
some of these new publications which are appearing 
on the surface at the present time, I do not know 
whether these are the for^-runners of an election, 
or whether they are the fore-runners of a hatchet job 



«UU>t 



F-4 

on the opposition in the election, I do not know 
whether Gladstone Murray has been replaced by someone 
else but I am. sure all the hon. members of the House 
must get this little publication published up in the 
north-v/est. It is called the "Rural Scene". 

MR. MacLEOD: That fellow used to be a C.C.F-er. 
MR. DENNISON: John Atkins, Publisher. I never 
heard of him in the C.C.F. E. J. Young, Editor. This 
publication seems to be, week after week, attacking 
the farm marketing schemes, trying to frighten farmers 
against the danger of marketing their own products, 
and retaining some control over their own products. 
In the last issue of this publication, it was said; 
"^■t demand is being created for legislation 
that will take the marketing of crops completely 
out of the farmers' hands and put & into the 
hands of government -appointed boards which 
will have a monopolistic control of whatever 
crops are assigned to them." 

MR. DUNBAR: Would you not be in favour of that? 
MR. DENNISON: I certainly would not, 
MR. DUNBAR: Is that not your policy? 
MR. DENNISON: This is attacking you, Mr. 
Minister (Mr. Kennedy) . Further on, it is said: 

"The farmers will have no authority over the 
boards but the boards will have complete 
control over the farmers," 
MR. KENNEDY: Do you believe that? 
MR. DENNISON: No, I do not believe this. I 
think this is the rankest form of propaganda, false 



Mar. 29 



F-5 

propaganda this province has at the present time. I 
am wondering who is publishing this thing. 

I>iR. McEiv'ING: Who is reading it? 

MR. DENNISON: I am wondering who is putting the 
funds up. 

M. MacLEOD: Who do you think? 

MR. DENIilSON: There must be some branch of big 
business being tapped to-day by someone. Someone is 
gathering funds from big business to-day to publish 
this sort of nonsense in an attempt to frighten farmers 
against their own marketing schemes. I think that is 
very deplorable. 

Yesterday all the hon. members received a telegram 
referred to by the hon. member for Essex North (Mr. 
Ellis) along the same lines, sent out by the Ontario 
Elevators Association. The language is somewhat 
similar. 

This telegram reads: 

"V/e object to the amendment permitting organization 

of pools of commodity groups; re-establishment of 

central selling agencies and allowing marketing 

boards to acquire property and machinery if 

needed." 
and so on. 

This organization apparently is also determined to 
stop the farmers having control or continuing control 
over their own produce. 

I would like to point out to the House that at the 
present time before any group of farmers can establish 
or initiate a marketing scheme, the Hon. Minister (Mr, 



Mar. 29 



F-6 

Kennedy) required them to have 75f^j I believe, 

entitled to vote 

riR. KENNEDY: 66% "^'^ho are, entitled to vote, to vote 

for the scheme. That is a high percentage.! see 
the Rural Co-operator expresses the opinion that they 
see no reason why it should not be a mere 51%; but, 
we require 66%; so that, in the first place, there is 
no suggestion that any of these marketing schemes of 
the farmers being ordered around by the government 
or by anybody else, I think the Department leans 
over backwards to make this democratic and to see 
that a good, large majority of the farmers are in 
favour of them and behind them. I will not deal 
any further with the Rural Scene. 



I am suggesting to 
the Hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) that 
he try to restrain some of these radicals in his 
party who go around the province making completely 
irresponsible statements, and frightening the people 
about legislation which is perfectly legitimate and 
which is perfectly democratic. 

SOME HON. ME^iBER: Who is it? 

KR. DENNISON: I am referring to none other 
than your friend, ex-mayor Jamie son Bone. 

MR. DUNBi-vR: We will expel him. He is out 
right now, . 

hR. DENNISON: The hon. members of the House 
will remember this is the same Jamieson Bone who, 
during the last railway strike, said in his official 



Mar. 2 9 



F-7 

organ that if he had anything to do with it, he would 
turn guns on the strikers. Such irresponsible, revolu- 
tionary statements, to be coming from Conservatives! 

I'IR. DUNBaR: li/hat item is that under? 

MR. DENWISON: This was in the property owners* 
paper last fall. 

The farmers, I am very happy tO sky, are not 
taking this propaganda too seriously, officially; that 
is to say The Rural Co-operator, understands this for 
what it is worth and they value it for what it is 
worth. It is, as they put it, "Bone Meal", 

The Rural Co-operator undertook to debunk 
some of this propaganda and they selected Mr. Jamieson 
Bone as perhaps the chief mouthpiece for the propa- 
ganda. They offered in their columns a prize of a 
suckling pig and one hundred pounds of pig starter for 
the best letter in answer to ex-mayor Jamieson Bone. 

MR. MacLEOD: V/hat is pig starter? 

MR. DENNISON: Pig starter is the food they 
feed the little pigs after it stops sucking the 
mother and up until the time it 

MR. McEv/ING: I might say he uses it before 
he starts, 

MR. DENiilSON: The hon. member for Waterloo 
South (Mr. Isley) informs me that it is what puts the 
curl in the tail of the piglet. 

The letters to the Rural Co-operator indicate 
to me, at least, that the leadership of the farm move- 
ment of this province and particularly the readers of 
this paper are not going to be fooled by the kind of 



Mar. 2 9 



F-g 



propaganda which is going out against the marketing 
schemes by these individuals ivho are being paid by- 
somebody. I do not know who pays them. 

I would like to quote from one of these 
letters. This person is Alfred S. C. Tebbitt , St. 
Anrfs, liural Route 2. He says: 

"I do not think I ever laughed so much in 
reading the Rural Co-operator as when I 
read Brother J. Bones effusion in the issue 
of February 13. As 'cornerman' in a minstrel 
show he certainly would be a scream. Would 
you not engage him to write a weekly column 
for our paper and call it 'Bone Meal'? For 
sheer hogwash it is good enough for pravda, 
being deficient in thought value, low in 
fact and high in sludge." 
I could read letter after letter describing the 
thoughts of the farmers with respect to this propa- 
ganda. I am wondering, in view of that propaganda 
which is going out, and some of it by members of the 
Progressive Conservative Party, I am sorry to say, and 
I would like to see the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
repudiate these radicals in the party ranks. In view 
of this propaganda going out, I v/onder if ^4^17, 500 is 
enough to put the truth before the farmers in this 
province. A great many farmers might not read the 
Rural Co-Operator; they might read some newspaper out 
in the country published by men like Jamieson Bone 
and supporting the extreme radical wing of the Tory 
iarty, the wing which is against all co-operative 



Mar. 29 



F-9 

marketing, V/e could increase this item, I think. We 
have a job here to do preventing this propaganda, 

M. McEi/ING: Under the Co-operative Marketing 
Branch, we heard considerable last year about the 
market terminals, or super-duper markets being built 
somewhere around here. V/hat is the progress with 
respect to that, and at what stage is it at the 
present time? How soon will it be available. 

MR. KENNEDY: I received a letter from Mr. Howe 
last week, I think, saying we could not have the steel 
for it. VJe have all contracts let. 

LR. JOLLIFFE: Louder. 

MR. KENNEDY: I received a letter last week 
from Mr. Howe. I have not it with me. It pointed out 
the stee!]. shortage. There is a shortage of 1,800,000 
tons of steel for such work in Canada. Until that is 
caught up with, buildings such as these, no matter how 
essential they may be, should not proceed, We could 
have made a nice start on it, 

MR. McEfING: Has anjrthing been done on it? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. The farmers are selling 
there now, of course. The building is not started but 
the contracts are all let to the tenants. They give us 
a legal cheque for a certain amount of money. 

MR. ISLEY: I wonder if the Hon. Minister (Mr, 
Kennedy) could tell us what part of that ^17,500 is for 
services and expenses in connection with the administra- 
tion, inspection, organization and development under The 
Credit Unions Act? 

MR. KENNEDY: The Credit Unions Act is doing 



i 



Mar. 29 



F-10 

business now. It is only 17/^ rural, '^hey have on 
deposit now the unbelievable sum of i^ 27, 000, 000. There 
are 516 credit unions in the province of Ontario, 
During the life of the Credit Union Movement in Ontario, 
v/hich has not been long, as you know, they have netted 
hp90,000,000 for the members. That is big business. 
When I "{get into the millions, I do not know v/hat they 
mean. I think perhaps the credit unions should be in 
another department, 

MR. NIXON: Have there been any failures? 

MR. KENNEDY: No. One man skipped out. 

MR. IS LEY: I was pleased to hear what the Hon, 
Minister of Agriculture (Mr, Kennedy) just said, I 
was wondering if this would not be an opportune time 
to set up an extra branch, The Department of Co- 
operatives, and put all your co-operative movement 
under this branch, put all the co-operative unions 
in the movement under that department, 

MR. KENNEDY: That is a thought. 

MR. ISLEY: I think it is well worth considering, 
because, after all, the co-operative movement is growing 
in Ontario and the day will come when you will have to 
put it in a separate department, anyway, 

IiR. MacLEOD: On Vote 4, if you do not mind, Mr, 
Chairman, coming back to the onions, again, really, does 
the Won. Minister (Mr. Kennec^ not think that it would be 
the fine thing for this province to take those onions out 
of the buildings at the Exhibition Grounds and send them 
to India or some of the countries where widespread famine 
exists at the present time? There are millions of people 



Mar. 29 



F-11 



starving. 

MR. KENNEDY: We have a special fund dovm 
at Ottawa which has been used for apples in British 
Columbia, apples in the Maritimes, potatoes in the 
Maritimes, and many other subjects where Ottawa takes 
over at a certain place and sends them out of the 
country or gives them away. It is |p200,000,000. 
Ottawa bought apples from the karitimes and processed 
them into apple sauce. They sent them around to 
institutions. That is their business > of course, v;e 
have been negotiating with Ottawa about it. They know 
all about it since last fall. 



(Take G follows) 



29th March 



G-1 

MR, MACLEOD: You mean you took it up with them 
last Fall, and nothing has happened since? 

MR. KmK^Y: Yes. 

MH. MACLEOD: The 265,000 bags? 

J/LR. KSMnIEDY: It is not anywhere near that number 
now. 

MR. MACLEOD: What is it? 

MR. Kia^INEDY: I would not like to even guess, but 
I know it is nothing like that; not a quarter of it. 

MR* MACLEOD: Under the circumstances, should ■ 
ni.;t new representations be made to Ottawa vdth a view of 
taking that food out of the Exhibition Buildings, and sending 
it where it is needed? Should you not make a new effort 
to get Ottawa to underwrite the cost? 

MR. KENNEDY: As a matter of fact, one of my man is 
up at the Marsh today, with the growers, to see what can be 
done about it, 

MR. MACLEOD: The onions are not up in the Marsh. 

MR. KENNEDY: Oh yes. 

THE CHAIRMAl'I: Before proceeding on Vote No. 5, 
I have received a note, I presume, from one of the hon. 
members, who wishes to speak on the annual question of rag- 
weed. 

On Item 5. 

MR. SALSBERG: I am very glad that whoever sent 
you that note is out, so that I may have the opportunity of 
speaking on this, in the first instance. 

In all seriousness I appeal to the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Kennedy) and to the government, to soften under this 
appeal I am making to them annually, about the ragweed 



29th March, 1951 



G-2 

situation in the province. I have appealed to the govern- 
ment year after year, but got nowhere very fast, but I still 
have hopes that the government v'ill recognize the importance 
of this question and the seriousness of it to so many people, 

MR. DEIMISON: In other v;ords, you vdll sneeze it 
through, 

MR. SALSBlilRG: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I 
want to make my appeal on humanitarian as well as on economic 
grounds, TJjie fact is that countless number of citizens of 
this province are seriously affected by the ragweed in the 
Fall of every year, and if for no other reason, except for 
humanitarian considerations, the government should do much 
more than they are doing at the present time to relieve the 
suffering of so many people. I suggest there are good economic 
reasons why the government should begin to act in the manner 
they have not yet done, because it would be impossible to cal- 
culate the losses suffered in the economy of this province 
as the result of the indisposition of so many people during 
that season. 

If the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr, Kennedy) 
would only keop his eyes open, he would see literally streams 
of tears shed by people in this province when hay fever time 
comes around, I am not exaggerating, as the hon. Minister 
(Mr, Kennedy) well knows. Thousands shed tears — involuntarily, 
of course -- and the government should be moved by this stream 
of tears which passes by their doors, at that time, Mr. hen. 
1/inister (Mr. Kennedy) if all the people should sneeze at one 
time in one unit, and sneeze together, they would shake the 
foundations of this building, and perhaps get some results, and 
I am only hoping that this government will call an election 



G-3 

late in August or early in September, and I would then bring 
together,^ ° any difficulty nor much effort, tens of thou- 
sands of enraged citizens, v;ho would storm the very Heavens 
to defeat this government for its failure to take care of 
what, to them, is a most important problem at that time of 
the year, and also to their families. 

Fortunately, the front benches of the government 
seems to be free of hay fever sufferers. The hon. Minister 
(Mr, Dunbar) who is now in convulsions is not a sufferer of 
the ragweed evil; he can get into these convulsions at any 
time of the year. But the government does not realize what 
it means to the families of the hay fever sufferers. They 
become very irritable and difficult; it is just impossible 
to be with them, or live with them, and I am sure there would 
be enough votes from the siifferers and their families to 
defeat this government. 

Let us look at what the government is doing. They 
are bringing in an estimate for the expenditure of a 
grand sum of 064,000, an increase of $2,000 over last 
year, and that 064,000, LIr. Chairman, is to be used for 
the following; administration of the Weed Control Act; 
Seed Potatoes, ' = ' important work, surveys, and traveling 
expenses, printing, advertising, and other educational 
work; purchases of seed, and equipment, prizes, trophies, 
and awards and such other work as may be directed by 
the Minister of Agriculture (Mr, Kennedy). 

All that is to be taken care of out of this $64,000. 
Little wonder that we are witnessing such a calamatous 
situation in the province, and I am not referring to the 
general interest of the province, aside from the interest 



i:-;.J .Ci •) 



29th March, 1951 



G-4 

of the hay fever sufferers. You know, the ragweed is steadily 
and relentlessly moving northward, like a flame. Every year 
it reaches a more northerly point, and I say that unless it 
is stopped, the entire Muskoka area will become covered by 
this horrible weed, and people will run away from the area, 
rather than go to it, 

IVIR. iraLoH: That is a very unfair statement, 
Muskoka is no worse than any other section of this province. 
I want to point out to the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) that 
obviously he does not know that ragweed is not the sole cause 
of hay fever. There are dozen of allergies. 

MR. SALSBERG: I appreciate the interest of the hon. 
Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh), and I would like the hon. 
Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) to become as disturbed 
as the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh). I did not say 
Muskoka was the worst; in fact, I think it is much better 
than some places, but I did say that unless we do something, 
to stop this movement of the weed northerly, it will create 
a condition where people will run, and I do not v;ant them 
to run. I say that the hon. Minister of Travel and Publicity 
(Mr.Cecile) should be given this Department. I think he 
would really"go to town" if it were put under his control. 
Or, if that is not feasible, let us give it to the Hydro 
Commission, because the Chairman t)f the Hydro Commission 
is a hay fever sufferer, and now that he is going to 1-. k 
after the Hydro . and telephone poles, all through 
the North, he may be the one to look after this ragweed. 

Imagine what it would mean if the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Kennedy) could advertise in the United States, "Come 
to Muskoka; free of hay fever"; you would have millions 



29tli March, 1951 



G-5 

of American tourists up there in the Fall. 

You are now dealing with a very serious matter, 
and I want to appeal to the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) in 
all seriousness at least to set up a special appropriation 
for ragweed, not just "weeds", and take the control of this 
weed out of the sundry estimates. Let us have an item for 
ragweed clearance; let us have a person or tvra in charge 
of it, and let us really come to grips with that evil, before 
it gets to a stage where we v;ill become completely helpless. 

You will need a lot of help in an election, whether 
it is a general election or a by-election, in September. 
I will be there — loud-speaker or no loud-speakei* you 
will remember the Bill vi/hereby loud-speakers are not allowed -- 
but I will bring all the coughers and sneezers who will 
trounce the Tory candidates as they have never been trounced 
before. 

AN hon. MilMBilH: Oh no, not that. 

MR. SALSBERG: Do not think any hon. member can 
escape it. If you come up for an election, you v;ill be 
defeated, by all those who suffer from hay fever. I am warning 
the government about that, and would ask them to do something. 
If the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) cannot do 
the job, let them put it under Public V/orks, because the 
hon. Minister of Public V/orks (Mr. Doucett) is recognized 
as a man who gets things done, and I am sure that he will 
very quickly clean up this mess, and the province will breathe 
freely again, and the families will be able to enjoy family 
life for at least two months of the year, which is now denied 
them, because of the inactivity of this government. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: On Vote No. 5, Item 6 "Freight on 



29th March, 1951 

G-6 

agricultural lime". The estimate last year was 025,000. 
This year it is (.30,000. 

I wonder if the hon, llinister (Mr. Kennedy) could 
tell us, first of all, what tonnage is represented by this 
estimate of $30,000? 

I would also like him to tell us whether he is satis- 
fied v;ith the progress we are making in this matter in Ontario, 
having regard to the large areas in such counties as Haldimand 
and many others? Is it more than a nibble, or does the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Kennedy) think we are making progress? I would 
like to hear from him in regard to this matter, 

m, KEMISDY: In 1940, it was 4,471 tons. Last year 
it was 40,102 tons used. There has been a steady increase 
every year, showing the necessity for the use of lime, I 
can send you over a list of the counties which use it, V/e 
are using a new approach to this matter ,8o-??i that is, the use 
of trucks, and Ottawa pays one-half, and we pay one-half, 
and the railroads give us a reduced freight rate. 

I know that in Sudbury, for instance, they used 
62 carloads of lime in that potato C^etriat in Pleasant Valley, 
and almost every county and district is using lime now, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: That would represent about 50,000, 
would it? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Based on the figures of the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Kennedy) gave for last year. I do not know 
whether last year's estimate was over-spent, or under-spent, 
but, roughly, it looks like about 50,000, as represented by 
this estimate now before us of 030,000. At the rate of perhaps 
1 ton to an acre, that vrauld be about 50,000 acres. 



t^vO 






G-7 

MR. KEl^INEDY: That is a very large application. 
I think you would find it would average about 200 pounds 
to an acre. I use half a ton, and that is a very heavy 
application. I think 200 pounds would be an average appli- 
cation. 

MR. T.D. THOMAS (Ontario): If the Federal Govern- 
ment is paying half of it, — 

I.©. JOLLIFFE: This is only for freight rates. 

MR, KENNEDY: The lime is very cheap. It is ground 
lime, and you can get a truck load for very little. I am 
not sure just what the price is, I should know, because I 
pay for it. I know it is very, very cheap. 

MR. R.A, McE'wIlIG (Wellington North): About a cent 
a pound, 

MR. FARr^JIHAH OLIVER (Grey South): 01.75 a ton? How 
would that be? 

MR. KENNEDY: That all depends on the transporta- 
tion. Vife may pay (;1,00, if it is a considerable distance. 
I knovi/ it is very, very cheap per ton. This, of course, is 
only for transportation, not for the price of the lime. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Mr. Chairman, I am still not satisfied. 
I know this is a subvention, and you cannot force people 
to do something they do not want to do. But does the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Kennedy) think we are making sufficient pro- 
gress? 

I have in mind a county, which I will not name, 

acres 
where we are told there are 100,000/of land which need lime. 

This may be one of the more unfortunate counties in that 

regard. Up until recently the average of lime imported into 

that county has been around lOOC tons, and at that rate, it 



G-8 

will take 100 years to get around the county, because the 
representative with v;hom I was speaking, said it would require 
about one ton to the acre. That particular county is within 
50 miles of the source, and they can get the lime cheap 
get the subventions, and from my latest information, they 
are only using about 1000 tons a year. 

MR. KEMNEDY: They can get the lime for less than 
s)l. an acre. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: You know the county I mean. 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. We say that lime is essential. 
Without going into details, it breaks up the soil, so that 
what is needed for crops will come up* I use a tremendous 
amount of lime myself. 

MR. T.K. FOSTER (Bruce): Before we go, Mr. Minister 
(Mr. Kennedy) I would like to take item 4 in Vote No. 5 of 
the "V/eed Control Act", Have you had much difficulty with 
the enforcement of the Act in the province of Ontario? 

MR. KENNEDY: It is improving very rapidly. 

MR. FOSTER: Last year a case came up which involved 
the county weed Lnspector, and even today I think there is a 
judgment standing against one farm, and there is not any 
doubt but what we should go into a little more detail in 
regard to this V/eed Control Act. I simply draw that to your 
attention. I think the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) knows 

of this case. Also I would like to see the man who is 

I 
enforcing this Weed Control Act given sufficient power so 

he can go out and do it. 

Vote No. 5 agreed to. 

On Vote No. 6. 

MR. T.H. ISLEY (V/aterloo South): Is the hon. Minister 



G-9 

(Mr. Kennedy) prepared to make a statement about the appoint- 
ment of the new Dairy Commissioner, Is that the proper title 
for him? 

MH. IC3NNEDY: Yes. 
i MR, ISLIY: Does that come under this item? 

MR. KENNEDY: Four years ago we made extensions in 
four of our branches, but it is very hard to get the qualified 
man. I have had men come froj; the States, and from different 
provinces, but they could not visualize what we wanted here. 
This man, Biggs came from Eastern Ontario. He went up to 
Guelph, He was President of the Student Council for 
four years ^ He was a champion boxer, and a champion debater 
up there. He is a returned soldier. He went overseas, and 
came back with an English wife, and went as Assistant repre- 
sentative to Middlesex county, and went to school there. 
He is a University graduate, and took special coursos, and 
went to France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, England, Scotland 
and Ireland. I received a letter from his special ins- 
tructor saying that very seldom had ' he seen a man with 
the capacity this man has. He came back, as a representative 
in my county, and I was very much impressed with him, and 
he will be the new Commissioner on Monday. 

Vote No, 6 agreed to. 

(TAKE "H» FOIXOV/S) 



H - 1 

liR. McSTu'ING: I.Ir. Chairman, vote number seven, 
"Fa^m Economics Branch'', covered quite a wide field. 
I wonder if the Ilinister could tell us if he has made 
any progress in exploring the possibilities of finding 
out the price spread of food products. I think he 
made the statement puBilicly three years ago that there 
was too big a spread, and that the farmer was only 
getting about 31^ of the proceeds of the apple crop at 
the price at which it was sold on the markets, and he 
thought he would appoint a committee to find out where 
the difficulty was, where the spread occur scj., and what 
the proper spread vrould be. lie proposed to set up a 
cost department. Has anything been done along that 
line? 

m. KoMlJEDy: Yes. I have a cost department 
over there now. The percentages vary with different 
commodities. In applet it is 80, in celery about 8O5S, 
Vifhere there is great bulk, marketing is very costly. 
If the farmer puts his product up in a container and 
sells it, he gets a larger proportion of the consuiaer's 
dollar. But year by year, the farmer is getting less 
of the consumer's dollar. Several factors enter into 
that. It is a rather large subject. But the closer 
the farmer and the consumer get together, the better it 
is for us all. That is what we are trying to achieve. 
I think that a terminal market v;ill be a great advantage 
both to the farmer and to the consimier. Taxes on food 
are tremendous. ",;e tax our food and then we complain 
about the cost, '.'e need further exploration into that 
matter, especially as it affects the north country; and 
vi/e belive that by other methods of bargaining, we 



Kar.29 



H-2 

— for instance, vre have an official whose special duty 
is to look into the matter of containers of food ^nd 
vegetables, transportation and other costs of our 
commodities will be reduced. 

UR. PAPIK: I agree vrith the Minister when he 
says that better methods of marketing, and putting the 
farmer and the city worker closer together so far as 
purchasing habits are concerned, are all to the good. 
But I think the Minister himself could do more in 
exposing these spreads. He did it once before. In 
1947 he made the statement which got quite a considerable 
amount of publicity, concerning the spread between 
what the farmer receives and what the urban consumer 
has to pay, I think the Minister might very well 
repeat that more frequently. One of the most interest- 
ing things about the price of foods in the last year 
is that the index of prices to the farmer has been 
going down, while the food index and cost of living 
index have been going up. If I recall the figures 
correctly, the farmers food index went down eight 
points in the year November 1949 to 1950, while the 
cost of living — the food index as part of the cost 
of living index — actually vrent up fifteen points. 
So there we have a discrepancy of 23 points in food 
costs, and the cost of that discrepancy is coming 
out of the pockets of the farmer on t he one hand, 
and the urban consumer on the other. I would like to 
see the Minister, by spotlighting this fact, giving 
it all possible publicity, threatening some of the 
profiteers in the food industry. He could work to 



H-3 

expose them once in a while. As I say, he did it well 
in 1947; I wish he would do a little more of it to-day. 
I think I suggested that a year ago in my Throne Speech 
contribution, I suggested to the Minister -- and as he 
was not present at the time, I repeated -• that it 
might be well for him to establish a consumers' bureau 
in his Department to direct the light on these facts, 
I believe the effect would be not only to lessen the 
margin between urban and rural people, which would be 
a very desirable outcome, but those who are perhaps 
exporting both classes might be brought to heel. 

Vote No, 7 agreed to. 

On Vote ^ — Farm Labour Service. 

M. ISLEY: I wonder if we could find out from 
the Minister what area the Farm Labour Service branch 
is in, and is now serving? 

MR. KENNEDY: V/estern Ontario along the lake- 
front, along Niagara and along Lake Ontario, and I 
think a county east,, where special crops are grown. The 
camps assist the growers with placements, 

MR. MeEwing (Wellington North): Have the activities 
decreased? I notice that in 1940 the salaries were almost 
double what they are in the Estimates this year. 

MR. R. THORNBERRY (Hamilton Centre),: Under 
Paragrapii 4 of Vote B, I wonder if the Minister would 
tell us ijust what steps the Department takes to establish 
people on farms that are in disuse. I imagine the question 
comes under the heading of Item 4, in connection with 
"transporting and placing workers ia farm camps and on 
farms." I don't know of any steps that are taken in the 



torch k;9Gh, 1951. 



H-4 



cities, I think it is something that might well be 
considered, both in the form of advertising, and also 
of classes in agriculture in the urban centres because 
it might surprise the Minister what a nunber of urban 
people they are who had their early start on the farms 
and who would, with some encouragement, go back to the 
farms, if certain steps were taken to encourage them 
in the mitter of classes in agriculture, and the "know- 
how" imparted to them, if they were given some "knowhow" 
as to how to go about acquiring a farm and how to operate 
it when they do acquire it. It might be possible to 
step up agricultural production, 

MR. KENNDYJ 1 had not thought qbout it. It 
is a thought worth having. 
Vote agreed to. 
Vote 9 agreed to. 
On Vote 10 - Livestock Branch, 
M. T. R, DENT (Oxford): Regarding Vote 10, 
Live Stock Branch, we have a little matter for concern 
up in my county. There are a hundred farmers who are 
using artificial insemination to get their dairy calves. 
We find that that saves the farmer keeping a vicious 
bull around, and we also find that the farmer is able to 
use much better bulls collectively than he could in- 
dividually in his own herd. Now what my farmers up 
there are concerned about — and I might say that there 
were twenty thousand calves born last year in Oxford 
County of which 49^ were bull calves and 51% were heifer 
calves — is a statement that was made by your Liberal 



March 29th, 1951. 



H-5 

Leader, — and, I would like to say, not the sitting 
Leader, but your fictitious Leader outside, -- 

]VIR. F. R. OLIVER (Grey South): He is not a 
fictitious Leader. You will find that out in time. 

MR. DENT: — :::nrl y'u ch:uld put this man right 
before he makes too many mistakes, and does the Live Stock 
industry a lot of harm too. This is the statement Mr, 
Thompson made, printed in the IJindsor Star of January 27 
this year: 

AN hon. MEMBER: He waK just "Shooting the bull", 
MR, DEN T: (Reading) 

"The man from Pickering does not believe in 
artificial insemination a;3 ''.he best way to 
breed a good herd of cattle. For one thing, 
he says that records prove that in many 
cases, nine out of ten calves are bulls, 
which is not economical for the farmer. 

Possibly the bulls used for insemination 
are not too carefully chosen, but Mr. 
Thompson says he can l^•>ok at any herd of 
cattle and pick out the calves that are 
naturally born and those which have come 
from artificial insemination. He ciairas 
there is no doubt about the natural calves 
being of much higher q^uality-" 
than those conceived by artificial insemination. Now 
I remember at the Royal V/inter Fair last year the Grand 
Champion Holstein Bull and the Grand Junior Champion 
heifer and bull calves were both conceived by artificial 
insemination. So I am quite sure that the calves born 



H-6 

from artificial insemination are not inferior in any- 
way to those confeived by natural breeding. Probably 
I am one of the pioneers in this province in artificial 
insemination in the cattle business. I have owned one 
sire that has 1500 offspring registered to his credit 
in the United States and Canada. One of his sg:;g, con- 
ceived by artificial insemination from Mr. Kennedy's 
riding sold for |20,000. Another animal from Dr. Stewart's 
riding sold for ^17,000. One from Elgin County, 6 months 
old, a heifer at that, sold for $11,000. to an American 
breeder. So get the idea out of Mr. Thompson's head as 
soon as you possibly can that artificial insemination is 
not a success. I want to congratulate the Minister of 
Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) for the assistance he has 
given to artificial breeding in the province. We do 
feel that before you people across the way come into 
power you must change the mind of your Leader, should he 
become Prime Minister, so that no setbakk will be given 
to the breeding of good dairy cattle and beef cattle in 
the Province of Ontario, 

MR. McElCENG: We will look after that. 

MR. OLIVER? Rising to take part in this interest- 
ing discussion, I would not seek to detraft from the 
eminence that my honourable friend from Oxford (Mr. Dent) 
has gained in the live stock breeding world, but i would 
say to him that as a live stock breeder I think he should 
recognize that Mr. Thompson also has a record which is 
rather favourable, I do not know where my hon, friend 
got the statement he has just read. I doubt very much 
if IVIr. Thompson ever said that; and as far as my friend 



Karch 29th, 1051. 



H-7 

from Oxford (Mr. Dent) is concerned, when he wants us 
to revise the thinking of IVIr. Thompson, we intend to 
revise the thinking of a good many of you fellows across 
the way. 

MR, E. B« JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
I wanted to ask the Minister a question under Vote 10. Under 
what item is asristance given in connection with 
provincial bull sales ? I see here a grant to the Beef 
Cattle Improvement Association. 

MR. KENNEDY: Item No. 4. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: The vote that is already passed? 

MR. KENNEDY: No: Vote 10, Item 4. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Oh, "Educational and Demonstration 
Work in any Branch of Live Stock" . Is that correct? 

MR. KENNEDY: That is correct. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: May I say that I think it is an 
excellent way of encouraging the production of better 
beef cattle in Ontario, I do not think a better way 
could be found, at the moment an3way, to achieve that end. 
But what is it going to cost this year? It is not broken 
down here. It \fould not be very much, would it? 

MR. KENNEDY: $24,^20. for all of the Province of 
Ontario. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: And the Federal Government also 
contributes? Is there not a Federal contribution? 

JVIR. KENNEDY: No. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I thought it was their intention 
to assist in that same thing. 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. We are doing it our selves now. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: V/ell, I congratulate the Minister 



IVIarch 29th, 1951. 



on doing it, I think it is good, and I wish it could 
be pushed a little further because I do not need to tell 
the Minister that there are a lot of inferior dairy cattle 
being sent to slaughter houses from Ontario farms, and 
there could surely be no better way of improving that 
situation than a wide distribution of better bulls. 

MR, KENNEDY: We are doing it, ~ making it wider 
this year, 

MR, JOLLIFFE: liJhat is it intended to do to make 
it wider? 

MR, KENNEDY: By local sales, V/e are giving some- 
thing to local sales that we never gave before, — like 
Grey or Huron or Lanark County. Ue give them a sum of 
money, so when they have their annual sale it will be 
helpful, 

M. JOLLIFFE: I am glad to hear that, because 
after all, the number of buyers at the provincial sales 
so far -- I think there have been three or perhaps four 
provincial sales. 

MR. KENNEDY: Three. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: The number of buyers so far is 
after all rather limited and I Ijave no doubt a great deal 
of work has been done, but there are still thousands of 
producers who raise cattle for beef and economically 
because the beast is an inferior beast, and who are there- 
fore not making as much as they could, and who at the same 
time are sending an inferior product to the market. I 
would like to see this province come to the place where 
our beef cattle would stand as high in reputation as our 
dairv natti s . 



H-9 

M. KENlffiDY: I would like to see that too. 
MR. JOLLIFFE: We have not got there yet. We 
are a long wa^r from getting there; and I am sure the 
hon. member for Oxford {Mr, Dent) will not shed any tears 
if our beef comes to the same high reputation that our 
dairy cattle now enjoy. 

MR, ]:.,!. McMillan : (Kent East): Under Item 
No. 7, I would like to ask the Minister how many demon- 
stration farms we have in the province, 

MR. KENNEDY: Five, in different parts of the 
province. 

MR. ISLEY (Waterloo South); How many munici- 
palities in Ontario are taking part in the warble fly 
treatment under The V/arble Fly Control Act, and will 
there b'4 more encouragement to the municipalities to 
adopt the provisions and regulations under the Act? 

MR, KENNEDY: 75 municipalities have taken grants. 
V/e have paid |17,S12. 

MR. ISLEY: Is there any way of encouraging 
all municipalities to take part in this? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. We give 50^ of salaries 
and 50^ of the cost of operation, and we encourage 
municipalities in every way to come into it. 
Vote No. 10 agreed to, 

(TAKE "I" FOLLOWS) 



I 



I-l 

On Vote 11. 

MR. E. B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Chairman, on Vote No. 11, I regret that I must now 
strike something of a sour note. This will be no 
surprise to the Hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. 
Kennedy) because I have discussed it with him on a 
good many occasions. Under The Milk Control Act, as 
it now is and as it was before last week — and .s 
it was in 194^ and before April 1, 194^ — regulations 
could be made, usually by the Milk Control Board with 
approval by order-in- council. So, it is quite clear 
that the responsibility for those regulations is the 
responsibility of both the Board and the Government, 
and I am sure the Hon, Minister (Mr. Kennedy) would 
not want to dodge or evade any responsibility for the 
regulations, or the way they are administered. I know 
he would not want to do that. 

There is a great deal which can be said 
about the regulations under the Milk Control Act. At 
the moment, what I am interested in are the regulations 
relating to bonding. The proof of the pudding is in 
the eating thereof. I must say very frankly to the 
hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) and to the Committee that 
the regulations relating to bonding have not worked 
out as well as they should have. The general impres- 
sion was given that under the bonding system the farmer 
was going to b e protected if a dairy failed — the 
producer, at legst, was going to get his money. That 
was the purpose of the bonding system. The Milk Control 
Board was not going to licence a distributor unless it 



Mar. 29 



1-2 

had proof of financial responsibility and bonds had 
to be filed under the regulations. 

I think the Committee should know just what 
happened in a recent case of failure on the part of a 
dairy. I think the fiKmer,h'.'n. members, and certainly 
the milk producinghon. members of this House would 
certainly be interested t o know something about the 
practical results. I will not /t©!?- a long story, 
although it is a very long story, which I have 
followed very closely ever since its inception. Here 
are the very bare facts of the situation. 

In the early part of 194^, the Milk Control 
Board asked a company known as Toronto Dairies Limited 
to increase its bond. It was not considered to be 
adequate because their business apparently was growing. 
The company did effect s me increase and protection 
fey filing with the board some Dominion Government 
bonds which the company owned. That provided ^4,000 
additional security; but the bonds supplied by the 
Vtfawanesa Mutual was only the amount of $14,000, so 
that the total protection available to the Board and 
to the producers through the Board was $1S,000. The 
Board asked the company to increase the bond. The 
company could not get an increase in the bond and said 
so. If the Board had been tough about it, it could 
have suspended the licence and put the company out df 
business; but, who wants to put a company out of busi- 
ness? I am sure the Board did not wish to do that when 
they thought there was some chance that the company 
might pull through. I know the producers did not wish 



Mar. 29 



1-3 

to put the company out of business when they were 
supplying milk to it. The long and the short of this 
was that the company went on and things went from bad 
to worse until, as the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
knows, in August and September the company failed, the 
company defaulted. 

Eventually, under pressure from the producers 
and also some pressure from me, the company passed a 
resolution to be wound up voluntarily under The Companies 
Act. Of course, then it was all over. ^^^^r. Chairman, 
there was owing to the producers the sum of sp47,219.40. 
I repeat, $47,219.40; that was in respect of milk 
supplied in August, September and October, 1948. 
VJhat happened? From that date to this, Mr, Chairman, 
the producers were paid 3^.33^ of their money, and 
that is all. Every cent they got was the money they 
got from the Milk Control Board, a ^14,000 bond from 
the bonding company, a little over $4,000 realized 
on the sale of the Dominion Government securities 
deposited with the Board by the company -- a total 
of a little over |1S,000, That represents 38.33 cents 
on the dollar of the money owing to the farmers. From 
that day to this, that is all those fellows have 
received. There was over ^1,200 owing to one of these 
farmers. That was his livelihood. That is how he 
makes a living. 

Under a bonding system which is supposed to 
protect the producer, all he got, and all any of the 
other farmers have got so far is about 39 cents on the 
dollar. I know that they are likely to get more. This 



I 



1-4 

happens to be March, 1951. I know these fellows are 
going to get more money, perhaps in June, July, August, 
or this fall, or next spring, because the trustee 
liquidating this company has some funds in his hands. 
There has been a great dispute about whether he should 
pay the same money out of the assets of the company 
to the producers that he paid to the other ordinary 
creditors. I think the hon. Minister (^r. Kennedy) 
knows something about that, I want it to be clearly 
understood, because I think it is time we faced it, 
that this bonding system is not good enough. There 
are too many loopholes in it, I will give one or two 
examples. 

Example No.l: v/hen the Board asked the 
company to increase its bond, the bonding company, of 
course, knew that this company was in trouble. It knew 
this company was in trouble, I repeat; the bonding 
company had the right to cancel the bond on sixty days' 
notice. That became a probability. In order to induce 
the bonding company not to cancel the bond, the dairy 
took i((i3,500 worth of Dominion Government securities 
which it had in its kitty, and deposited those securities 
with the bonding company as security for the protection 
of the bonding company, negotiable securities to the 
sum of ^3 J 500. The bonding company carried on. I repeat, 
the bonding company carried on and held kt>3 ,500 against the 
*14,000, it might be called upon to pay. The Milk Control 
Board did not know anything about that, or that the 
assets of the company had been reduced secretly by $3,500, 
so that there was ultimately |3,500 less available for 



Mar . 29 



1-5 

distribution to the creditors. When that matter was 

disputed before the Master of the Supreme Court, the 

Master held, I think, correctly in law, that the 

V/awanesa was entitled to retain the #3,500 in Dominion 

Government bonds vfhich it had taken as security for 

continuing with the bond. The point is that, without 

the knowledge of the Milk Control Board, the assets 

of the company were diminished to the extent of 

13,500 by a private deal between the dairy and the 

bonding company. The bonding company was 5^3,500 to 

the good, the creditors of this company are sp3,500 

worse off. The Milk Control Board dould do nothing about itt, 

and there was no possible way in which they could know 

about it. That is example No.l, 

You see what can happen, is that the bond 
can be a complete bluff. The company can be 
bonded to the time of iiplO,000 and can deposit practically 
all its liquid capital with the bonding company to 
cover the bond. Then you have the Milk Control Board 
paying the producers part of their claim, but nothing 
left in the kitty of the company to pay the balance 
of their claim, as there should be, if the bonding is 
to be more than a fiction. If the bonding is to be a 
reality, it should be a bond which the bonding company 
villi pay without going into the other resources of the 
company, I think I suggested to the Hon. Minister (Mr, 
Kennedy) on a previous occasion that this bonding 
system would work far better if the provincial govern- 
ment sfet up an insurance fund, and if the 
distributors, instead of having to coax these bonding 



Mar. 29 



1-6 

companies into putting up a bond, if the distributors 

paid a premium into that fvnd which the Milk Control 

^ 
Board could distribute without further ado, if the need 

should arise there would be adequate protection. 

I might say that the bonding companies' premium appears 

to be one per cent. 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: In other Words, if you are a 
dairy and you have to be bonded, you are going to be 
bonded to the tune of ^^10,000, your annual premium is 
HplOO. That is the preraiiam which was paid to the 
Wawanesa in the case I mentioned, 

Mr. Chairman, this is even worse than I men- 
tioned, because the Milk Control Board was not able 
to realize the money immediately. Here were a group 
of farmers in Durham County and elsewhere in the 
Toronto milkshed who needed their money and needed 
it badly right away. They were not like the trade 
creditors, who have a few dollars here and there 
owing to them; they were a people making a living 
by selling milk. The Milk Control Board demanded 
payment of the |14,000 from the V/awanesa, and, 
Mr. Chairman, I think the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
must know what iifawanesa did. They scid, "Vife do not 
think we have to pay this. Somebody is of the 
opinion that this company will eventually pay 100 
cents on the dollar. We will not pay you." Tne 
Milk Control Board had to sue them to get the money. 
I think it took nearly a year for the Milk Control 
Board to recover the money from Vifawanesa. ■'■hat is 



1-7 



not good enough, '^hat was not the purpose of the 
bonding system, that the Milk Control Board should 
have to go out and waste a year's time trying to 
collect money from a hard-boiled company like k'awanesa, 

m. KENNEDY: V/e will not take its bonds now. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: You will not take its bonds now? 

MR. KENNEDY: No. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I think you are very wise; but 
in the case of these fellows of whom I am speaking, 
it is rather late in the day. These fellows had to 
wait nearly eighteen months before they received a 
nickel, 

MR. KENNEDY: That is about right, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: And they will have to wait 
another eighteen months, at least, before they get 
anything more, I think it is a terrible thing. It 
certainly means that our bonding system was not as 
good as we had hoped it would be. If the Hon. Minister 
(Mr. Kennedy) had an insurance fund up here supported 
by premivuns paid by the distributors, there would 
have been no difficulty about collecting on the bond; 
payment could have been made to the producers immed- 
iately they proved their claim. It could have been 
done the next day. I am sure the cheques would have 
gone out very quickly if that had been the situation. 

I know the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) has 
given this problem a lot of thought, but I think it 
has been allowed to drift on much too long. I think 
something has to b e done about it. I am not prophesy- 



iHar,29 



r 



ing doom or anything like that, but there you have the 
fact of a dairy failing. There are other dairies in 
this province which could fail. They are not all 
making handsome profits. I think some of them are 
doing very) very well, but there are a number of 
smaller dairies which are not doing well. Then, let 
us not pretend otherwise. These people could pay it, 

I want to serve notice on the Hon. Minister 
(Mr. Kennedy) and the government right now that I am 
not being very rough on you about this case of the 
Toronto dairies — I have been probably too easy vdth 
you so far — but you have had your warning, if this 
should happen again, and it could under the present 
bonding regulations, there would be no possible excuse 
for your failure to improve the bonding system. No 
possible excuse. It could happen again. 

How did the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) or 
the Board know what kind of a deal may have been made 
between some of these dairies and the bonding company? 
How does the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) know that the 
bond is adequate? In the case of the Toronto Dairies 
Limited, the bond turned out to be entirely inadequate 
— less than 40%. What kind of protection is that? 
I could tell the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) and the 
Hon. members of the House a lot more about it, because 
it is quite a complicated affair, but one thing it 
certainly proves is that your bonding regulations in 
194^, 1949, 1950 and 1951 were wholly inadequate. As 
a matter of fact, Mr. *^hairman, when the new Milk 
Control Board was passed in 194^, it became effective on 



Mar, 29 



1-9 

April 1st and we had a new act in effect. It took 
this government until the following " ..,..• 
February to pass new regulations under the new Milk 
Control Act. Talk about speed and effieiency^ I think 
that is just about the pay-off i That tops it, for the 
record; ten months to pass new regulations under one 
of the most important statutes on the books. 

'■inhere was apparently an impression abroad, 
at least there was an impression somewhere in the Milk 
Control Board, that until the new regulations were 
passed, the Milk Control Board did not have the pov/er 
to do what perhaps ought to have been done in the 
Toronto dairy dispute. I have looked into that. I am 
now speaking as a lawyer, rather than as a farmer, I 
think it is wrong, I think the Board had all the 
powers necfe^sary under the old regulations, even after 
the new j^-ct became effective. My reason for saying 
that is to be found in the Interpretation Act, 

MR. KENNEDY: I agree with that. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: The Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
r.as a lawyer, rather than as a farmer, agrees with me 
the power was there. I think it is either Section 
15 or Section 16 of The Interpretation Act. There is 
provision that where a new Act is passed to take the 
place of another Act, where you are repealing one Act 
in order to substitute an Act redrawn, the regulations 
under the old Act, so far as they are not inconsistent 
with the new Act, continue in full force and effect 
until the new Act has its own regulations, •'•hat is 
to be found in The Interpretation Act of this province. 



I-IO 



I think it means that the Board, after >ipril 1st, 194^, 
had all the power necessary, in theory at least, to 
deal with the Toronto Dairies Limited case . I think 
they have that power to-day. '.That assurence can be 
given to us now, Mr, Minister (Hon. Mr, Kennedy) that 
the next time a dairy goes broke the experience will 
be any different from the experience in the Toronto 
Dairies Limited case? How do I pr W neighbouri • 
who is shipping milk to-day, know that he will not find 
himself facing a defionct dairy, which has defaulted, 
supposing they owed him over ^1,000 for shipments? 
How dowe know he will not have to wait for over a 
year before he gets anything from the Milk Control 
Board on the bond and perhaps three or four years before 
he gets anything from the trustees of the bankrupt 
company? What assurance can be given to us that the 
Department or the Board have learned any lesson frctn 
this case so that something like this will not happen 
again to-morrow? 

I am so fond of the Hon. Minister (Mr. 
Kennedy) that I do not like to raise cain about a 
matter of this kind, but, you know, if it happens 
again, I would certainly have to raise cain in a 
large way. 

What has the Hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
to say about this? 

W; KENNEDY: What the Hon. Leader of the 
Opposition (Mr, Jolliffe) has said is quite true. 
Bonding has been a worry to us for some years. T/Zhat 



Mar. 29 



I-ll 



you suggest we tried to do as well. V/e tried to 
operate by simple fund. We were told legally we could 
not do it, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: You mean the big dairies 
objected to it? 

MR. KENNEDY: No. That was a very nasty 
situation. This invariably happens. Six weeks goes 
by, the milk has gone up in price and the bond has 
not gone up as wdl. The Board has talked about it, 
and talked about it and have raised the bond in some 
cases, but no one knows better than the Hon. Leader 
of the Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) that there are some 
very shaky distributors in the province. V/e are 
watching them and we hope we can get a bond and we hope 
by putting daily payments into the bank from the 
farmers each day — say, if they buy ^300 worth of 
milk, that day ^300 has to go into the bank in the 
name of the board that distribute it, V/e were very 
much worried over it. 

I'lR. JOLLIFFE: You mean in connectj.on with 
these daily payments the bank undertakes to supervise 
these collections? Would the board be notified? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: If the distributors defaulted? 

MR. KENNEDY: Yes. We have inspectors on the 
job all the time. We have daily, weekly, bi-weekly 
payments to protect us. It is nht 100% protection, but 
it is the best v;e can do at present. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: But, does that not involve the 
Board, or the inspectors of the Board, exercising discretion,^^*^ 



Mar. 2 9 



1-12 

exercising judgment about whether a certain distributor 
should pay daily, weekly or every two weeks? That is 
where the element of human fallibility is going to 
enter in — is it not? 

MR. KENNEDY: That is right. 

(Take J follows.) 



29th March 



J-1 

li/IR. KENNEDY: That is right, Sir. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I mean vihere the hon. Minister (Mr, 
Kennedy) agrees with me, and I am not clear about v;hat is 
being done, 

MR. KENNEDY: It is a hard thing to work out. 
I will give you an example, about which you probably know. 
Me advised the producers "Do not ship any more milk to that 
man", but what happened? The next day every farmer shipped 
that milk in, and said "I v;ill take a chance". That is a 
pretty hard case to handle. You may put .-his money into 
the bank, and finally another dairy took the operations over. 
It is hard to work out in every case, but we are doing the 
best we can, I am just as much worried as any hon, member 
in the House; more so, because I am the man who will get 
the blame, I do not put it off under the Milk Control Board, 
I take the blaiae for everything that happens in my Depart- 
ment. 

MR. NIXON: You are not suggesting you will make 
the losses good, 

MR. KENNEDY: Not unless you raise the pay a bit. 

Votes 11 to 13 inclusive agreed to» 

ON VOTE 14: 

MISS MCPHAIL: This has to do with the V/omenl' 
Institute. I think very highly of the V/omen's Institute. 
I have belonged to it for many years, and, Mr, Minister (Mr. 
Kennedy) I feel that sometimes the hand of the government, 
regardless of the party in power, is a little too heavy 
on the policies of the Women's Institute, 

MR. KENNEDY: Not mine. 



r 



J-2 

MISS mCPHAIL: I am very glad to hear that. 
I belong to the old U.F.17. 0., the V/omen's Institute, and 
the Federated Farm V/omen of Ontario, I find a different 
spirit Ja the old U.F.\v\0., and the Federated Farm "Tomen, 
than in the Institute. They have no lead strings. There 
was much more enjoyment for a person of my type to be a 
member of the U.F.V/.O. or the Federated Farm Women than 
the Institute, much as I like them, and much as I appreciate 
the good work they are doing. And the same thing is to 
some extent true of the Junior Farmers, I noticed here a 
vote which passed when I was cut of the Chamber, in regard 
to the Ontario Radio Forum, 02,000. Please do not subsidize 
the Radio Forum too much, because they are a virile organiza- 
tion. In fact, I do not think there is anything better in 
radio. If you go into a community, where they have the 
Forum, you find an aroused, independent thinking people. 
You do not find that in a heavily subsidized organization. 
Much as I like the Women's Institute and the Federate Farm 
V/omen, I feel there is a tendency on the women to be over- 
conscious in what they are thinking. I have never felt 
over-conscious myself, but it has never got me any place. 
Perhaps I should have been. I feel that in the V/omen' s 
Institute they are always thinking of all these "taboo-es", 
by the Department, and I do not like that. The women in 
the Institute are capable, intelligent women, and I would 
like them to just be themselves on every subject, no matter 
what it is. Of course, I suppose the government changes 
off and on, but where the same government is in power for a 
long time, I think it is true, as it is in the junior farmers, 
that they tend to accept the policies of the government in 



J-3 

power, and there is something vicious about that, because 
many of the people of Ontario are used to training the minds 
of youth in the direction in which the government wants it 
to go, I think we vjill have to be very cautious about that. 
It is quite a big vote for the V/omen's Institute. I am not 
finding fault with its size, nor for it being as large as 
it is — Ol25,500, but I want to see all the lead strings 
of the government released. It is not the money of the 
government after all; it is the money of the people of 
Ontario, and I do not think in the cases I have mentioned, 
the Junior Farmers, the V/omen's Institute, the Radio Forum, 
and so forth, there should be any tendency on the part of 
any government, regardless of what government it is, to 
get the thing running this way. There is nothing I v^ould like 
better than to see the restrictions removed. I do not like 
them at all, 

I have attended many meetings of the Forum and the 
Women's Institute, and I am speaking now from a long expe- 
rience, and I think the Women's Institute should be enlarged 
to give service to all farm v;omen's organizations on such 
things as home economics, the various courses Vi/hich are given, 
the training schools, and things of that kind. I do not think 
we should curtail it; I think the Department should give ser- 
vice to all organized farm women. I do not think it matters 
what kind they are, whether they are members of the Federated 
Farm women, or the Institute, The Federated Farm V/omen, 
do not get the service, V/hy do they not? 

MR, KENKEDY: I do not know, I am sure. I can 
vouch for this, that never, in any shape or form, since I 
have been Minister, have I interfered with the Junior Farmers, 



>:j^j 



X)0 



29th March, 1951 



J-4 

the Women's Institute, and so forth, and. I am sure the 
hon. member (Miss MacPhail) will believe everything I say 
about that, 

MISS IviACPHAlL: It may be that they like the hon 
Minister (Mr, Kennedy) so much that they veer that way, 
but for some reason or other, they do not get the service. 

MR. L.F.K. FIILL (Parkdale) : Before the Vote is 
carried, may I ask a question of the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Kennedy)? I have looked through the estimates trying to 
find some estimate or vote for the Union Stock Yards here 
in Toronto, but I cannot f ina it, and I was wondering where 
it was wondering to have it discussed, 

MR. KEIMEDY: There is a separate vote in here 
for the stockyards. All the vote is for is to pay the 
salaries up there of the men, and then we do some injections 
of serum, Ottawa gives us the serum, and we inject it, 

MR. FELL: The reason I raise this point, is because 
I would like some information. I also have some information 
I v^ould like to give to the hon. members, and it has to do, 
to some extent, v*/ith the Union stockyards, 

MR. KENI-^DY; Do it now. 

MR. FELL: All right, I will. This is a problem 
which has been brought to ray attention, and it involves the 
stockywards, because the question begins at that point. It 
is the question of processing the hogs by the packers, 
and my information is that the hog raisers lose a consid- 
rable amount of money between the time they sell their hogs, 
and the time they receive their cheques. Perhaps some in- 
formation can be given as to how this comes about. I think 
they are paid on the basis of processed weight, which means 



J-5 

that after all the processing at the packing house has been 
completed, the hog raiser is paid on the basis of what is 
left hanging on the rail, I think this is important. If 
the hog raisers have not raised this question before, I think 
it should be noted here. For instance, when a hog raiser 
receives his cheque for that hog, he is paid on the weight, 
less such things as the kidneys, liver, intestin^^jand certain 
other parts of the animal, and those products are all used 
by the packers. Somebody might say, "All right, let them 
have the liver, the heart, the lungs, and other things, and 
reduce the weight from what they are receiving now", \7hether 
that is a fair argument or not, I do not know. It seems to 
me that the hog raisers are losing in the transaction, 
and they should be receiving a more adequate compensation for 
those things which are commercialized by the packing house 
industry. 

It is only a matter of figuring out an approximate 
weight. If a man sells a herd of swine, he may be losing 
a considerable amount of money. One thing which happens 
is in connection with the weight of the hog*s head. Every- 
thing is used in the packing house, the only thing which 
escapes is the squeal, and in ■::'■' cessing the head, it is 
severed at the back of the neck, and at one point it may 
be left hanging by a thin strip of flesh, and quite often 
that strip of flesh is broken by the weight of the head, 
which may weigh anyv^/here from three to six pounds. 
Once the head falls, it is condemned, and there are three 
or six or even eight pounds lost to the hog raiser right 
there, and if he has a number of hogs, the amount lost is 
considerable. 



E9th March, 1951 

J-6 

The reason for raising this question is to ascertain 
whether or not the Department has been informed of this situa- 
tion, and if there has been anything done. I think the hog 
raisers are at the mercy of the packers from the time the 
hog gets to the stockyard. They go in, and are gone, and 
the raiser gets a cheque, and all he can do is to say "V/ell, 
maybe it is all right". 

I would suggest that the Department of Agriculture, 
particularly in the province of Ontario, should pay a little 
mord attention to what happens to that hog, once it goes 
through. The hog raiser is losing money, and the packing 
industry is in there, to take everything they can lay their 
hands on, and what falls off, or gets kicked around the floor, 
is lost. 

I would suggest that if the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) 
has not had %hi^3 icfcrriaticn before, he should be interested 
enough to enquire from the hog raisers just v;hat the situation 
is, 

I have just received a note saying that the squeal 
goes to Scotland for the bagpipe manufacturers. 

MR. KENNEDY: This is the first I have heard about 
that. I will certainly make enquiries, 

VOTES 16 to 21 inclusive agreed to. 

CN VOTE 22: 

MR. HARRY NIXON (Brant): In this Vote we have the 
sum of 08,000,000 for the Hydro Electric Power Commission 
of Ontario for rural primary and secondary lines, and I presume 
that in this vote, it is about the only opportunity an hon. 
member has to discuss the various aspects of the Hydry ad- 
ministration throughout the province. 

There has been a number of press reports and considerable 
publicity in connection with the transmission lines which are 



nc 



••ni 



29th March, 1951 



J-7 



being built in various parts of the province, and the 
treatment the farmers hav" received at the hands of the 
Hydr . Commission. I think the publicity this has received 
has been all to the good, and I believe under the new Com- 
mittee which was set up some very interesting information 
was given this morning with respect to increased provisions 
for better payment of the farmers for the losses sustained 
when these lines are constructed across their properties, 
and I think there was a very great need for improvement in 
this connect! on# 

For many years I have irequently protested the manner 
in which the farmers owning property used by the Hydro in 
the construction of these linos have been used in the past, 
and whenever I had any influence it was given in the direction 
of the farmers, that they should receive as equitable and 
fair treatment as it was possible for the Hydro to give. 
After all, this tremendous corporation spends many, many 
millions of dollars on these projects, and the amounts that 
are paid to the farmers for the damage that is done to 
their properties is but a very, very small proportion of the 
cost of the project in full. 



{Ti\KE "K" FOLLOWS) 



j 



29tli March, 1951 



K-1 



The Prime Minister said the other day that in 
a lapse of ten years the Hydro would spend a billion dollars 
in connection with the development of its projects, V/ith 
everyone, you have got to have a distribution line stretching 
across the country, and a very small proportion of that one 
billion dollais, in the final analysis, will go the property 
owner to compensate him for his losses. 

Three years ago there was a high tension line 
running across the county of Brant, through my riding, 
and I wish to give you some examples of the manner in which 
landowners were treated, and hmi absurdly inadequate was 
the provision to compensate the farmers. Here is one 
instance. The Hydro man cut a strip 55 feet wide on each 
side of the right-of-way, making it 150 feet. To the 
right of where they cut were 1200 trees which were EO years 
old. They v;ere tall and straight. The trees were left 
lying in all directions; and it cost around i^300 to get 
them cleaned out and cleaned up. One tower was erected. 
The compensation for tower and work was $81., for trees, 
$425.; damage to crop and lane, ^75. I have some personal 
knowledge of this particular incident. The '^xj'ixi.t containing 
this information is signed by Mrs. Martha Harvey, of Ancaster. 
I took this up with the Hydro, and the Chairman promised hia 
personal attention to the matter, I heard nothing further 
from that^ but I asked Mr, Harvey subsequently v;hat 
additional amount he get', in^ h. . I-.f ". Well, that 

is just adding an insult to an injury. Mr. Harvey said, 
i 
."What can I do, fighting against this great Hydro Corpora- 
tion? V/e simply had to take what was given to us," Certainly 
there was no suggestion then that the Hydro Commission would 



29th IlP.rch 1951. 

air:oint an office:- to licl:) t'lcu crbitrc.ts or de-'Gsmine 
v;li:'-t tlie prop3r "mount of d'^.r.ir.~G I'-^.s. I li'r.vs seen this 
gc.sii tIirou::h tliis j^cn's rood lot. To \:^.s c. i^roxjerty of 
\';l'iich he v;c.s very proud. The trc:p stood there on each 
side, r~-.s straight r.s see .rs« It A;es really an inseiretion 
to sec ;. wood lot like th-.t in thrt p^rt of O.tv.rio. The 
trees vjore not of r.ny "re-.t dir.metcr, but they v.-ere just 
■".t the point v.'hen they ;;ere ^.-roAvin- into real ..loney; r.nd 
y-dro :;-ad for them at the r^.te of 35 cents a tree, — a 
tree 40 year-: old, "nd on l.-.nd which hed been kept for 
p-.&t'.irin , in e.ll those ye-rs so tlyt the trees could 
flourish -nd yror into ". csh crop. Those trees \.'ere 
sihvly left there in - jeck pot, T e farraer himself vr:s 
sick theii:^ -~nd he is nov;, -nd he a'-.s not eble to :'0 vith 
an -exe ".nd sc.v :ind clean the.i u;); he h'd to he.ve the v.ork 
done; he ".'aid ,.200 to rt it done. If you substract thD.t 
iro-:i the ,425 he ot , it le.:t hi.e lees t'lan 11 cent'^ c. tree 
for £ 40 y"...r old tree, ivhioh \"-.e just in ideal shape to 
grov; into soiee real ..loney. ITo one v;ould su^yest that is 
even a pitt .nee -.s a coiepens-.tion for v-hj-.t t'ds rv:iTi suffered 
in his bush-lot. He has th-t 150 foot cut rn lin^ throu.^h 
his bush-lot. Th:t land is of "bsolutely no use tc hin for 
all tiii.e to coiae. He cannot yroi: anythiny there; he still 
has to pay t-^xes on it — or if not, I en subject to correction 
— tbe "ydro does aot own the l^nd , the fr-rrier ovns it. There 
A'ill never be any tree rov on th"t I'-nd for all tiax- to 
come, because -s soon 's they ^t to be -^ny size they rill 
h:'ve to be cut as tbey \.-ill interfere A.'ith the wires. In 
Audition, te y.''in tazee en Ir.nd ^-liich 



29tli Marcii,19bl 



K-3 



is absolutely useless to him, the municipality will ses 
that he keeps the wood culfc on the lot in a proper condition. 

If I wished to do so, I could recite many instances. 
The farmers got the rrv/cst deal from the Hydro r.ny one 
can possibly imagine. I say in all seriousness that this 
situation must be corrected, or '^""^^'g^ing to be a lot more 
heard about it in this House than there has been in the 
past. 

And then these people went to farm after farm, without 
any advance notice, at the time vjhen the damage was 
the greatest to the crop, and with their big machinery they 
Just ran hog -wild all over the farms. Here is an instance: 
Mr. Harvey Charlton -I J^aesed this on to the Hydro, and 
I hope they are pc/ing some attention to it. Three years 
after the damage v;as done there was a bill for damages 
to the crop of $1810. on which the farmer has not yet 
received one cent to compensate him. He went through 
all the trouble of putting in 75 acr s of wheat, 25 acres 
of canning factory corn, and 10 acres of peas. A great 
deal of his crop was ruined by the operations of the Hydro, 
and three years afterward he has not received one cent of 
compensation. He said: "I have been trying to get a 
settlement on this for three years but have only succeeded 
in having a few professional men call on me to pare down 
parts of this account under promise of an immediate settle- 
ment," That is the sort of treatment we have received 
from the Hydro when they constructed this line through 
Brant. Probably the cases that were more serious have come 
f '•••■•■ ."tention recently, but v;ithout exception no adequate 
settlement has been made. The farmers were most disatisfied 



p<0£i 



K-4 



with the treatment they received at the hands of the 
Hydro Electric Power Commission. 

You give a Commission of this kind such wide autho- 
rity as has been conferred on the Hydro Commission, and 
that authority should be used with moderation and common 
sense and consideration for the other fellow's viewpoint. 
I tried to point that out to my hon. friend, the Minister 
of Mines (Mr. Gemmell) the other day when he brought in 
a Bill giving the Gas Corporations power to expropriate 
farm lands. This is a dangerous power, and it is a power 
that must be used with discretion and with a view to being 
fair to the landowner. I sometimes wonder if we are not 
coming to the point where the farmer who owns the land 
has less rights on it than somebody else who wants to come 
and interfere with those rights; and things have surely 
come to a funny pass when they can come in without your 
leave and ruin your crops, cut down your trees and leave 
them iying there in a jack pot and give you no considera- 
tion v; hat so ever. Just to give you another example, I 
know of an instance where they put a line — and this 
was a small pole line — through a farmer ♦s flats; it 
was Phillip Loeb, south of the village of St, George. 
He Jiad a very large pasture there, and there was only 
one tree in that pasture. It was a very large beautiful 
maple. It was at some distance from the Hydro line. 
There was no limb anywhere near the lines. It might have 
been mathematically possible, if the tree blew over 
in an exact position, that the top could have struck the 
wires. But without consulting the owner of that land 



29th March 



K-5 



they went in and out down that beautiful maple tree. 
The owner almost wept over the treatment he had received, 
I do suGgest that, important and necessary though it is 
for the Hydro Commission to carry their lines across the 
property of farmers everywhere they go, they could be a 
little bit more considerate of the farmer *s rights before 
they go in and chop down his trees and destroy his crop 
without a "by your leave" or even an Advance notice, 

I think I will leave it at that, Mr, Chairman, I do 
not wish to take up further time of the House. But I 

do feel that we have a great grievance in the way we have 
been treated in the past. I sincerely hope that, under these 
new regulations, farmers who have to have their land used 
for these pruposes in the future will get much better treat- 
ment than we have received. 

MR, FROST: Mr, Chairman, may I say that there are 
many points on which I find myself in complete agreement 

with my hon, friend, I feel that ■ , . 

which 
the urban centres of this province need power for their 

operations have no right to expect the farmers of this pro- 
vince to donate their land for nothing. That is my view, 
I think that if this means increased power rates, it should 
mean increased power rates. There is no rime or reason for 
asking, be cause of public necessity , that people should give 
up their lots and their farms for nothing, or for next to 
nothing, I want to make that plain, 

(TAKE "L" FOLLOV/S) 



'.a^' ''fo ;;••::. :v, '"■ 



March 29, 1951 



L-1 

Ify hon, friend the member for Grenville-Dundas (Mr. Challles), who 
represents the government on the Commission is authorized and in- 
structed to see that the farmers get a decent deal in connection 
with the extension of power lines. Now I say that without reservation. 
I feel that these great lines — and they cross my country now in a big 
way — these great lines involve of course some arbitrary powers, you 
cannot avoid that in running them through perhaps for hundreds of 
miles. You have to have some arbitrary power, but I do say that 
there ought to be decent compensation paid — I should say more than 
decent, I quite agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Nixon) in this, that 
supposing a line is cut through a bush lot or a piece of bush, what 
possible use is that land forever to the farmer or to the land owner? 
In ray own country I have got — I was going to say hundreds of miles — 
I guess I have got hundreds of miles of that type of power line; it 
is all very well to step in and pay that man something for the timber 
that is cut off, but what about the land? The land is absolutely of 
no use from that time on in most of those cases, particularly where 
it runs through a bush lot. What can you do with it? I do not think 
the land is really worth anything. The fact that the power line is 
there means really that acreage is lost, 

MR. NIXON: It is a liability. 

MR. FROST: It is a liability in many instances, and I think 
that we have to so regard it. Now, as regards procedure, I want to 
get myhon. friend's (Mr. Nixon) views on that subject. After all, 
he used to sit over on these treasury benches for some nine years. 

MR. NIXON: That is right. 

MR. FROST: Now, how about procedure? I am not satisfied that 
oiu? present procedure is right, and I think most of that procediire 
was invented during the time that my friend the hon. member for Brant 
(Mr, Nixon) was Provincial Secretary, and my hon. friend the member 



L-2 
for Niagara Falls (I4r. Houck) was sitting in the position now 
occupied by the hon. member for Grenville-Dundas (Mr. Challies). 
How about the procedure? I think myself that the procedure perhaps 
might bear some betterment, but what? We admit that the Commission 
must have, in the interests of the people, arbitrary povjers. Now, 
is there a procedure that is better than the procedure that we have 
at the present time? 

As regards the compensation rates, these have been very much 
bettered. The hon. member for Grenville-Dundas (Mr. Challies) will 
explain that in a moment, but they have been very much bettered; 
whether they are sufficiently bettered or not, I do not want to 
pass on that, I want to make sure that they are sufficient to meet 
v^iat are very clear damages that these property owners suffer. 

With that explanation, with giving you that as a matter of 
government policy, my hon, friend (Mr, Challies) can give the parti- 
culars of what is being presently done, 

MR. H. W. WALKER (V/elland): Mr, Chairman, it is my privilege 
to report to this Assembly that Monday morning, along with ny 
colleague the hon. member for Niagara Falls (Mr. Houck), a group of 
farmers got together and interviewed the hon. member for Niagara 
Falls (Mr. Youck) and myself regarding this power line that was 
coming through that area. 

I think a lot of the trouble, Mr. Chairman, is due probably 
due to the appraiser, the land appraiser vriio goes throiigh there 
representing either Niagara Falls or Hydro. Some very conflicting 
statements have been made, for instance one farmer who had purchased 
the land from an old lady, the Hydro back in the years I believe 
approximately I916 gave $50 for a thirty-year lease, and the appraised 
assessment on that particular land is roughly between $1,00 and $1.50 
an acre, that makes approximately .';J120 she is paying back in taxation 



March 29, 1951 



L-3 
for 30 years for four and a half acres for which she received $50. 

There are other farmers where this new venture is following 
number 20 highway, where the property is worth somewhere in the 
neighborhood of $200 or $300 for every sixty feet as building 
property, and that area is now building up as a residential area 
and they are taking a 300-foot right of way which is in 1949 
Estimates at the sum of si>145 for approximately 150-foot right of way. 

Now I think, Mr. Chairman, a lot of these difficulties could 
be straightened. The people in the area realize that Hydro is a 
must and that this venture must go through, and if it were just a 
case of some individual farm who was in disagreement, probably 
trying to get something that is not a satisfactory arrangement from 
the Hydro, then there would be some reason for disbelief, but vdien 
farmer after farmer in a continuous line along the project are 
complaining over the treatment, then it seems to me it comes down 
mostly to the land appraisers. ' 

There is one particular appraiser who two years ago was 
supposed to come back and see those farmers regarding their grain 
crops. Now those crops have been harvested and there is nothing 
that an appraiser could come back and settle with the farmer upon. 
We have had complaints now that towers are being built in the middle 
of wood lots in the Niagara Peninsula, without the farmer in question 
having been asked to "terms" or having made any particular arrange- 
ments or agreements about that particular field . There is quite a 
misunderstanding by all concerned there. 

In approximately 1916 one farmer got 5?865 for approximately 
60-foot right of way and then again some years later on the second 
transmission line, he got $900 for approximately 75-foot right of way, 
and now in 1949 he was offered $145 for a 150-foot right of way. 



March 29, 1951 



L-4 

Now those are just approximate figures, Mr. Chairman, which 
I have quoted from memory as the committee was talking to us, but 
I felt that a lot of these difficulties could be ironed out by- 
promptness and probably somewhat of a fair committee of land 
appraisers in that area. The farmers in that particular area are 
very anxious to get this straightened away, as some farmers have 
plans for building lots, and what have you, and the new power line 
will take away all those privileges of the best land, and most of 
that land down there is selling for $1000 an acre. You are getting 
into the fruit bearing lands, where you cannot buy some land at 
$1000 an acre. 

MR. FROST: Mr. Chairman, we appointed a Hydro committee 

the other day of what, twelve hon, members of the House; they 

met this morning, and I was quite interested, I just asked the hon. 
Minister for Hydro (Mr. Challies), and nobody asked the question at 
all down there. That is what the committee was appointed for, 

MR. W. DENNISON (St. David): Oh, yes, they did. 

MR. FROST: I wish they would go down there and have a real 
discussion on that point and get the thing ironed out, because I 
want to see the farmers get justice in this matter. How about 
reconvening this committee and going down and discussing this and 
having the thing out and finding out about it. 

Apparently this morning, if there was any question asked, 
there was not apparently very much time spent on it. Now, let us 
have the thing out. 

MR. HOUCK: Mr. Chairman 

MR. FROST: Now tell us what you did in the nine years you 
were over here, 

MR. HOUCK: Well, are you going to talk or am I? 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 



> 



L-5 

MR. C.V/. COX (Fort William): I vdll let you talk first. 

MR. HOUCK: Then, Mr. Chairman, may I say in reply to the 
hon. Premier (Mr. Frost), I am on that Hydro Committee and I feel, 
and I think the hon. Vice-Chairman of Hydro (Mr. Challies) will agree, 
we held a very fine meeting and solved a lot of problems there this 
morning . 

MR. FROST: Did you deal with this one? 

MR. HOUCK: It was my understanding that as a Committee we 
were not to go into a dog fight on those details, 

MR. FROST: But you were sent there for the purpose of — 

MR. HOUCK: Can you not wait until I finish? Give me a 
chance to speak, 

MR. FROST: I am going to ask this Committee to go dovm and 
have another sitting on this question and nothing else, and let us 
hear about it, 

MR. HOUCK: I want to tell the hon. Premier (Mr. Frost) that 
this very question was raised and discussed with the hon, Vice-Chairman 
(Mr. Challies), and one of the Commissioners — 

MR. FROST: Better have the dog fight in there than here. 

MR, HOUCK: — and I think the Chairman is giving it attention, 
but might I say in regard to the meeting with the hon. member for 
V/elland (Mr. Walker) that those people were objecting to the fact that 
they have been given the "run aroimd", not so much by the Hydro 
Commission officials, but by their agents dovin in that territory. 

They had a man down there by the name of Johnston, and those 
property owners have gone to a Mr, L, B. Spencer, a personal friend of 
the hon. Premier (Mr. Frost), to see if they could not have a settle- 
ment. Mr. Johnston was there in 1949 and said: "I am going on my 
vacation, I will be back in a couple of weeks and we will settle the 
matter then" . He wrote them in November, 1949 and said: "I will be 



March 29, 1951 



L-6 

down shortly". They have not seen Mr. Johnston since that time. 
Mr. Spencer got in touch vath Mr. Johnston, and Mr. Spencer vn?ote 
the property ovmers in 1950 that he had a letter from Mr. Johnston 
that he would be down within the course of a few weeks, Mr. Johnston 
has yet to put in any appearance to meet those people. 

Many of those farmers have borrowed money and need this money 
for the whole line that has gone through their property, and no 
doubt the hon. Vice-Chairman (Mr. Challies) will take it up with the 
Hydro and see that at least some settlement is made. 

Any may I say that I think some of the holdup has been — and 
the hon. Vice-Chairman (Mr. Challies) will bear me out or will tell 
me if I am wrong — that you have something in mind in regard to the 
Niagara tunnel going through, taking up land on the farmers instead 
of land where the line is going through at the present time, but the 
property owners would be satisfied if you would send Mr. Johnston — or, 
I think it is Mr, Hustler — 

AN hon. MEMBER: Mr. Hustler? He should be the right man, 

MR. HOUCK: — if he went down there, and would see that some 
settlement is concerned. 

MR. FROST: Did my hon. friend (Mr. Houck) ask any questions 
this morning about these pole lines? 

AN hon. MEMBER: What is that to do with it? 

MR. HOUCK: V/e started at 9 o'clock and we were in there irntil 
a quarter after twelve, 

MR. DENNISON: Mr. Chairman, may I say this — 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. FROST: Just a moment, my hon. friend (Mr. Dennison) . We 
appointed a committee of this House composed of twelve members — 

MR. DENNISON: The committee is not finished yet. 



Marcn 2V, 195x 



L-7 

MR. FROST: ~ two of them from this side of the House over 
here, to deal with these questions. I do not know of a more practical 
question they could have dealt with than that one, and I am surprised 
to find out they met this morning and only a couple of questions were 
asked, 

MR. HOUCK: We got a brief on it. 

MR. FROST: I am going to ask the hon. Vice-Chairman (Mr. 
Challies) to reconvene the Committee and get the matter settled, 

MR. NIXON: Mr. Chairman, when on that committee I understand 
the Chairman read a lengthy brief of some 53 pages and no one was 
given a chance to get in the discussions of this kind, and after all, 
this is the place to bring up these matters. 

MR. FROST: What did you think the Committee was for? 

MR. DMNISON: Mr, Chairman, this question was discussed this 
morning. Have the members of the committee forgotten what went on 
there this morning? 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. FROST: I don't think they knew what was going on, some 
of them. 

MR, DENNISON: V/e were told this morning by the Chairman that 
in his opinion this matter had been settled to the satisfaction of all 
concerned. He said that the amount paid for a steel tower, which 
previously was ^50 had been raised to $75. 

MR. NIXON: How far back has that been made retroactive, may 
I ask? 

MR. FROST: Would you like it made retroactive back to 1934? 

MR. NIXON: Absolutely. 

MR. FROST: That is when you were in power for nine years and 
did nothing. 



L-8 

Hon. T.L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture): I am all for that, 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 

MR. DENNISON: Wait till I finish the sched\ile . Next is the 
tvdn pole. They had previously received $13.00, they will get $37.50 
for each twin pole. The next is the single pole and anchor, for 
which the farmer previously had received just $5.00 and which is now 
increased to $12.00 a piece. That was given out this morning — 

MR. FROST: Was my hon. friend (Mr, Dennison) on the committee, 
or was he just doiv-n there? 

MR. DENNISON: No, I was down there and I was on the Committee, 
and W3 did discuss this. I am amazed at the lapse of memory of this 
Committee . 

SOl-IE hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. FROST: You see, it all goes over their heads, they do 
not know what goes on, 

MR. DENNISON: But, Mr. Chairman, I brought this matter up 
last year with the hon. member of the Hydro-Commission in the House, 
(Mr. Challies). 

MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): You put the wrong people on 
that Committee. 

MR. DENNISON: And I would point out that in some cases it 
is not so much the question of the poles, but it is the right of way, 
and Mr. Sanders this morning assured us that they are now going to 
pay increased amotints for right of way. The right of way vJiich was 
pre'/j.ously 52(^ per rod for a 20-foot right of way will be $1,20 per 
rod for a 150-foot right of way. This is a 50^ increase over the rate 
in force from 1947 to 1950. So that the complaints we had last year 
on right of way are going to be slightly aided. 

I agree in every other respect with the hon. member for Brant 
(Mr, Nixon) and with the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) that the 



March 29, 1951 



L-9 

Hydro should charge a svifficient amount for its power to consumers 
to see that no class of consumers, be they farmers and very anxious 
for Hydro and in many cases willing to put up with a good deal of 
inconvenience to get it, that no class of consumers who happen to 
be unfortunate enough to be on the Hydro right of way be penalized, 

MR. COX: Mr. Chairman, when I listened to my hon, friend here 
(Mr. Houck) talking about the raw deal that the farmers received and 
listening to the hon. Premier (Mr. Frost), who was in such an 
apparently receptive mood about it, probably it is about time I should 
talk on behalf of the people of North-Western Ontario, because I 
think if any group of people ever did get a raw deal it was the people 
at the head of the Lakes in connection with the Hydro development 
there. I think I discussed this last year, particularly referring 
to the Aguasabon project that cost approximately 1(^12,000,000, and 
I think the eventual cost of $16,000,000. The facts are these; 
I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that the fundamental principles of 
Hydro were not followed out in Northern Ontario. Hydro is funda- 
mentally power at cost; is there any reason why these paper mills 
should have one rate, and the consumer in the two cities another rate? 

MR. FROST: That has nothing to do with this Estimate. 

MR. COX: Well, we are talking on Hydro, and I think this is 
very important to the people up there, 

MR. FROST: No, no, this is rural Hydro. 

MR. COX: I beg your pardon? 

MR. FROST: This is rural Hydro, 

MR. COX: Well,— 

MR. FROST: Wait till my hon. friend (Mr. Cox) speaks on the 
Budget . 

MR. COX: I thought it was very opportune. 

MR. FROST: No. 



licirui 2V, 1951 



L-10 

MR. COX: Then when can I talk on it? 

AN hon. MEMBER: On the Budget. 

MR. F. R. OLIVER (Grey South): But on that very point, is 
this not the item upon which \re can discuss Hydro? 

MR. FROST: I do not think all Hydro should be discussed. 

MR. OLIVER: What other items are there v/e can discviss it 
under*? 

MR. FROST: Let me get it straight for a moment, 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Get it straight, get it straight. 

MR. FROST: Mr. Chairman, this item refers to rural Hydro, 
and I think my hon. friend the member for Brant (Mr. Nixon) was quite 
right in raising that point. It is right on the beam in connection 
with rights of way required for these lines running across farmers' 
property and it seems to me an effective point to raise. 

Now, as regards Hydro generally, we have of course the Budget 
and the Throne debates in connection with all of Hydro problems. My 
hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) asked for a 
Committee in connection with Hydro, in order that some of those 
problems that were difficult to discuss in the House might be brought 
closer to the peoples' representatives by way of a Committee. I was 
quite convinced by his arguments and the result was that we formed 
such a Committee. Now I can assure my hon. friends there is not any 
idea of stifling the work of that Committee. If there are things 
that my hon. friends want to ask, certainly ask them in that Committee. 

I think that my hon. friend the member for Fort William (Mr. Cox) 
has on the committee a former Commissioner, one who ought to be very 
familiar with anything in connection with Hydro, because he was down 
there for a number of years. He has a representative who ought to be 
^Tble to get these things — and that, I think is the proper place to ask 
those things. It is, I think quite proper, of course, to make speeches 



March 29, 1951 



L-11 



In relation to this matter on the several opportunities offered 
in the House, but this Estimate here deals with rural Hydro and I 
think it should be confined to that. This is not opening up the 
whole Hydro question. 

MR. OLIVER: Well, it always has been. 

MR. FROST: Oh, no. 

MR. OLIVER: Oh, we always did. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Mr. Chairman, let us be fair about this, 
I think the Committee this morning made a good start. Not all hon. 
members of this House were there, there were only two hon. members there 
from the Liberal Party and there were four or five from the Con- 
seirvative Party. It is true that Mr. Sanders presented a very 
lengthy brief, but I thought the time was well spent. To be factual 
about it, it took about one hour and twenty minutes to go through 
the brief, then in the time which remained a great many questions 
were asked and Mr. Sanders answered most of them, I think generally 
to the satisfaction of the Committee. But it would be ridiculous 
to deduce from the fact that the committee met for three hours or 
more this morning that the grovind was fully covered. That simply 
was not possible. 

I agree that this matter did come up, and I think that Mr, 
Sanders himself would be the first to say that further questions 
remain to be discussed, there are for some examples on which he 
wanted to get the information before giving an answer. 

MR. FROST: When, may I ask, are you meeting again? 

AN hon, MEMBER: Ask the Chairman. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I think that was left to the Chairman, was 
it not? 

AN hon. MEMBER: That is right. 



L-12 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Yes, it was left to our good friend the hon. 
member for Oxford (I'Ir. Dent) to arrange that. After all, these men 
are busy men and we want to arrange it at a time that will be con- 
venient . 

Now, with reference to this particular point, I think it is 
quite proper for any hon. member to discuss, certainly, the Hydro — 
the rural aspect of Hydro, under this vote, but I do not think the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Frost) should be technical about this. 
After all, there are no other Hydro Estimates, at least if there are 
they are pretty obscure, and my information and recollection is that 
in 1947 and 1948, my hon. friend the member for Grenville-Dundas 
(Mr. Challies) took this item as his opportunity for making his 
speech about the Hydro. 

MR, FROST: VJell, he is going to speak on the Budget. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Well, I am not saying that he shoiild, I think 
that is his option. Certainly if he wanted to make a speech about 
the Hydro this year on this item, and I am sure my hon, friend the 
member for Grey South (Mr, Oliver) would not object, and I would not. 
I do not think the hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Frost) should be too 
narrow about it. I know he does not want to get into a long drawn 
out discussion about Hydro at this point, but I mean, let us respect 
the right of private members to raise these questions and trust to 
their good judgment and sense of reasonableness not to carry it too far, 

MR. FROST: Well, I am in agreement with that. 

MR. COX: Mr, Chairman, I think the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) implied I had an opportunity this morning. I was at the Forestry 
meeting this morning, which I think is perhaps equally as important, 
and I had no opportunity of bringing this up before the Committee, 

MR, FROST: Well, we have been looking forward to your speech 
on the Budget dealing with this matter. 



March 29, 1951 



L-13 



MR. FOX: You are looking forward to it, are you? You 
might not be so pleased after I make it, 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: We have all been looking forward to a number 
of speeches on the Budget. I wonder when they will occur? 

AN hon. MEMBER: If ever. 

MR. FROST: If we get these Estimates through, I can promise 
my hon. friend (Mr. Jolliffe) we will have it on Monday — we will 
have a real debate on Monday. 

MR. COX: I would like to bring that up again, I have a 
rather vivid recollection of a year ago when it was brought up, 
my hon. friend the member for Port Arthur (Mr, Robinson) — somebody 
is showing me the clock. I know where the clock is. 

MR. FROST: Do not look at that for a moment. Just a moment, 

MR. COX: But I think it means a lot to the people at the 
head of the Lakes, several hundred thousands of dollars, and I think 
the people are unfairly treated and they should get a refund. I 
remember a year ago, and I think the former Prime Minister at the 
time (Mr, Drew) and yourself intimated perhaps that Aguasabon might 
be taken out of the Thunder Bay District and put in what is known 
as the Northern Ontario — 

MR. FROST: I am in agreement with that, 

MR. COX: You are? Then we will not quarrel over that, but 
there is one other point: When are you going to stop the bonussing 
of the paper companies? 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Carried. 

lylR. MacLEOD: Mr, Chairman, I want to raise a point — 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Carried. 

MR. MacLEOD: It will only take a minute — now just a minute — 
I happen to be the member who either last year or the year before 



March 29, 1951 



L-14 

proposed that we shovild take some steps to obviate and overcome 
the very difficulty we are in now. I suggested that there should 
be placed in the Estimates an item which would enable hon. members 
of the House to discuss Hydro as they discuss the Department of 
Agriculture, the Department of Public Works and so on, 

MR. FROST: May I tell my hon. friend (Mr. MacLeod), that 
was the purpose of having the Committee. That was the point, 

MR. MacLEOD: I want to reply to that. You see, I think the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) is being quite ridiculous. For 
instance, ttiis morning the Chairman of the Committee on Lands and 
Forests was good enough to suggest that I go over to that meeting. 
Well, I wanted to sit in on it — 

MR, FROST: That is open to every hon, member. 

MR. MacLEOD: Just a minute. I went, but the place was so 
crowded that although I was the only member there who was not a 
member of the Committee, the place was so crowded that I had to 
leave. There was not even a place to sit down. Now, vdiat would 
have happened if a dozen, or twenty-five or thirty hon. members had 
gone to that Committee? 

Now, even if it had been possible for twenty-five or thirty 
hon. members to attend that Committee, with the privilege of asking 
questions, I suggest that the mere asking of those questions or the 
mere right to ask those questions there should not deprive hon, 
members of the House of an opportunity of discussing and asking 
further questions here, 

MR. FROST: Well, I agree with that. 

MR, MacLEOD: I know, but you are making it very difficult 
for people to ask questions, by saying: "Well, why do you not ask 
them down there?" Now, I am going to repeat the proposal that I 
made a year or two ago, that next year there should be placed in the 



1 



L-15 



Estimates a nominal item which will enable the hon. Minister in 
charge of Hydro (Mr. Challies) to have his day in the House in 
the same way that other members of the Cabinet do, and the same 
thing applies to the Ontario Liquor Control Board, because there 
is no opportunity to discuss these things in the House at all, 

Hon, G.H. CHALLIES(Minister without Portfolio): Mr. Chairman, 
may I just say, as far as — 

AN hon. MEMBER: Carried, 

MR, MacLEOD: Just a minute with your "carried". We want 
to hear viiat the hon. Minister (Mr. Challies) says. He has been 
deprived of speaking. He has asked for the right to speak a number 
of times, and he has been side-tracked. We want to hear him. 

MR, CHALLIES: I want to say in this question of my responsi- 
bility, I have felt, and as the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. 
Jolliffe) pointed out, each year I have made a report on the progress 
of Hydro during this year. That was ready, but unfortunately my 
illness prevented me from giving it. I hope that I can under the 
Budget cover s ome of the points that have been covered during the 
past year, and give another report for the year 1950 of the Hydro's 
activities for that year. 

I Tfldll be very happy to go into those rates and the rest, 
because there is nothing to hide, 

MR. MacLEOD: No, I am not suggesting there is. 

MR, CHALLIES: The rates are set, and the position of the 
Commission on increased rates is a very excellent one of compensation 
to the farmers for their power, and the rest of it. 

MR, FROST: Mr. Chairman, let me make this suggestion. First, 
the Hydro Committee is meeting again at the call of the Chainnan, 

MR. MacLEOD: It is not a Hydro Committee, 

MR. FROST: Or the Hydro Committee. 



March 29, 1951 



L-16 

MR. MacLEOD: It is not a Committee on Hydro, 

MR. FROST: I wish you would place as number one on the 
agenda the discussion of this right of way problem. I think that 
not only would they answer a good many questions, but if there are 
ways of bettering that situation, I think we should get down to it 
and better it. I think the farmers of this province and the land- 
owners have a very definite right in this matter and let us make sure 
that they get positive justice, in fact more than justice, that is 
what I would like to see. I think that that might be the first move 
in connection with this matter. 

The next point is this: Next week, when we clear the Estimates 
away, my idea was to have the Budget debate continue, and the hon. 
Minister of Hydro (Mr. Challies) has, I think, a complete answer or — 
not a complete answer, they were not framed as an answer, it is framed 
in the form of giving to the House infonnation concerning a great many 
of these things, and I had hoped to have the hon. Minister of Hydro 
(Mr. Challies) speak on them early in the week. 

That is one of the reasons I am anxious to get the Estimates 
cleared up today, so we can go ahead with some of these other matters. 

MR. MacLEOD: But does not the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 
agree that there is some merit — 

MR. FROST: Yes. 

MR. MacLEOD: —in the proposal — 

MR. FROST: Yes. 

MR. MacLEOD: — of placing in the Estimates an item, apart from 
the Department of Agriculture, which will permit the very able Vice- 
Chairman of Hydro (Mr. Challies) to discuss these problems with hon. 
members? If he makes a speech on the Budget, there is no opportunity 
to ask for additional information. I am making this proposal in 
fairness to a very outstanding authority on Hydro who is not heard 
sufficiently in this House and who has a great deal of valuable in- 
formation which the majority of hon. members want to hear. 



March 29tli, 1951. 



L- 17 

MR. FROST: Mt?. Chairman, It was really that point 
that I had in mind when I acquiesced to the suggestion 
that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) 
made at the opening of the Legislature, 

It seems to me there is a great deal of this 
class of information that can he very properly obtained 
in Committees. Actually, speaking, it is difficult here 
in the House by way of question and answer to cover these 
points. So many of them are mainly technical points. 
Now, my idea was to make it so that a representative 
committee of this House could go down to Hydro without 
being hurried or pushed, and could get a great deal of 
information on technical points that you could not begin 
to answer here. I had in mind that such an inquiring 
and inventive mind as that of my hon. friend, the member 
for St. David (Mr. De^nison), who no doubt has a lot of 
things he would like to ask, and I think beyond any 
possibility that we might answer them here. 

MR. MacLBOD: Well, he is a member of the Com- 
mittee. 

MR. FROST: I beg your pardon? 

MR. MacLEOD: He is a member of the Committee, 

MR. FROST: That is right, 

MR. MacLEOD: That is right, but where does that 
leave the other hon. members? 

MR. FROST: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think that this 
is the position. We have A. Committee. The Committee, of 
course, is the normal voting Committee that we have, you 
cannot put everybody on such a Committee. On the other 
hand, I Jjjiink we should have this understood, that if there 



,March 29th, 1951. 



L- 18 



is any hon. member of this House who is not a member of 
the Committee, that he should be enabled to go down to 
the sittings of that Committee, and, as a matter of 
courtesy, his questions should be answered, and, while 
it is true that he would not be able to vote, nevertheless 
he would be able to get the information that he requires. 

MR. MacLEOD: I am afraid the rest would never 
sit at all in this case. 

MR. FROST: But remember, all of the 90 hon. 
members of the House here are interested to some degree 
in the work of this Committee, but you cannot put 90 
monbers on it. You have k dozen hon. members on the 
Committee and other honi manbers have the right of going 
to meetings of the Committee and asking questions. That, 
I think, is the answer to it. 

MR. MacLEOD: You have a Standing Committee on 
Agriculture which has had several meetings with quite a 
sizeable membership on the Committee, and yet it has 
taken all afternoon to deal with the Estimates of the 
Department of Agriculture. 

MR. FROST: That is right. 

MR. MacEEOD: And no one will suggest that a 
foolish question was asked here this afternoon. All 
questions were relevant, important and to the point. 
You cannot solve it the w«y you are suggesting at all. 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Carried. 

MR. FROST: vVell, we are experimenting in demo- 
cratic government. We will try to find the solution. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Mr. Chairman, I cannot be here 
at eight o'clock exactly and I want to be clear about 



I 



L- 19 

the hon. Prime Minister's (Mr. Frost) intentions with 
respect to Estimates. This is Thursday andtomorrow is 
Friday, we have some time at least next week; what would 
the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) like to do tonight? 

MR. FROST: I would say to my hon. friend (Mr. 
Jolliffe) that I was hopeful of clearing up the Estimates 
tonight, iquite frankly. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: What, all the remaining Estimates? 

MR. FROST: Well, we have only three Departments, 
Usually the Provincial Treasurer is not too heavy. Labour 
has been discussed till I think the subject ought to be 
fairly well covered, that leaves only Lands and Forests, 
in which we have had a Committee sitting which I think 
would answer a great many of the questions, and hon. 
members of that Committee will continue to sit - I think 
we might try to clear the Estimates up tonight. 

We are following out, I mean department ally, a 
little different line next year. I was hopeful of having 
the Estimates all completed before the end of the fiscal 
year. I have many reasons for wanting to do that, among 
them being that instead of having, for instance, salary 
increases delayed say until the 1st of July and then made 
retroactive to April 1st, I have been having our Depart- 
ment work on salary increases with a view to making them 
effective in the month of April, as much as possible. I 
have hastened the tempo of all of the Departments with that 
in mind. 

As soon as the Estimates are completed, I was 
starting myself next week, in my capacity as Provincial 
Treasurer, with the Treasury Board, to go over with each 



March 29tl-i, 1951. 



L- 20 



of the Departments a number of the matters that have been 
discussed here. We have been taking note of what has 
been said here and discussing with the various Depart- 
ments certain matters relating to administration, so 
that it is really altogether desirable, Mr. Chairman, 
that we should have this cleared up before the end of 
the fiscal year, which ends on Saturday the 31st of this 
month. 

Now, we only have three Departments and I think — 

MR..JOLLIFFE: Mr. Chairman, on former occasions, 
of course, when that difficulty has been encountered, 
for a few days at least it has been taken care of by 
resolution, 

MR. FROST: Oh, well — 

MR. JOLLIFFE: There is a form of resolution which 
can take care of it pretty well. 

MR. FROST: That leads to complacency. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: It would only be a matter of a 
couple of days at least, if you were to run into next 
week. With reference to these three remaining Depart- 
ments and with the best spirit in the world and with no 
desire whatever to delay matters, I would suggest to the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) that it is too much to 
attempt, The Department of Labor, the Department of the 
Provincial Treasurer, and the Department of Lands and 
Forests. It seems to me they are all important, I am 
not saying that they need take a great deal of time, I 
do not know, but to attempt three Departments of that 
magnitude after eight o'clock of a Thursday evening, I 
think is a mistake and I say so seriously. 



March 29th, 1951. 



L-21 

MR. FROST: I would be content, perhaps, to have 
one of the Departments tomorrow, I would be content that 
we do two tonight and have one of them tomorrow. I think 
we might do that. I would like tomorrow to clear up some 
of the Order Paper in connection with committee work, per- 
haps for a portion of the time, and then we could sit 
through. I know some hon. members want to get away at 
3.15 but I think that we could go through until, say, 
five o'clock,. I would be quite content to do that, with 
those who could remain here, and cover whatever Department 
is left over until to-morrow. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Vifell, permit me — 

MR. FROST: I am quite content to, say, take Lands 
and Forests and Treasury, say, tonight, and take Labour 
tomorrow afternoon, if that would convenience my hon. 
friend (Mr. JoHiffe). 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I do not know how it will wrjk 
out, but permit me to say that I think the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) will agree we have made good progress 
this week. 

MR. FROST: That is right. Very good. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: v;e were not here Monday, which 
left Tuesday, '.Yednesday and Thursday, and I think we 
h%ve made pretty good progress. I do not think there 
has been anything in the nature of obstruction. 

MR. FROST: No, that is right. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: And when you come down to matters 
as important as these, I am anxious and am sure the hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) is also anxious they should be 
dealt v;ith and considered in the proper atmosphere, and 



. .1. ;■■. 



March E9th, 1951. 



L- 22 



not very late at night or very late in the week when 
people get tired. In fact, honestly I think they go through 
more quickly when people are less tired, than when 
people are tired. Because when people are tired, they 
get stubborn . 

SOME hon. MEMBERS* Oh, oh. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: And somevi^here along the road, some- 
one will say: "Well, I ani prepared to stay all night," 
and a dozen other people &gree. 

lilR, FROST: I do not think we should do that, Mr. 
Chairman, Let me point out to my hon. friend (Mr. Jolliffe) 
another reason I thought we might clear up the Estimates; 
next week we have the Election Act, we will have legislation, 
at the present time there is a discussion between the York 
municipalities in connection v/ith the matter of assessment , 
which has been quoted in the press; we felt that it was 
desirable rather than to rush that, to give the munlcip- 
alities the opportunity of discussing the matter them- 
selves and seeing what if any agreements might be arrived 
at . 

I am hopeful that that legislation would be 
introduced on Monday. That leaves the Election Bill, 
and leaves' the Budget Debate, Now, Mr. Chairman, I 
know what it costs hon. members to be around here, par- 
ticularly those who are out of town, and I had hoped that 
perhaps we might be agle to wind up the proceedings of 
the House, say, on V/ednesday, certainly not later than 
ffbursday. As my hon. friend (Mr. JoHiffe) knows, there 
are some official functions on Friday which I think would 
make it desirable to get the House, if we can, prorogued 



L- 23 

on Thursday. If we can gain a day and make it Wednesday, 
so much the "better. 

Remember, hon. members may be a bit frayed at 
the end of the week but that happens again next week, 
that always happens. Now, if we can just, as I say, 
keep our feet on the ground and try to get these Estimates 
through, I think it would enable us perhaps to deal ' th 
some other very important matters in a little bit more 
orderly way in the first three or four days of next week. 

I just make those suggestion, Mr. Chairman; let 
us see v\i'hat we can do. 

Now with the matter of Lands and Forests, there 
is no reason why Lands and Forests should be all completed 
today. If the Committee v^anted to meet for a morning or 
two next week, I would be very glad to arrange that. I 
think it is very desirable that that information be 
given to our hon. members and that they should have the 
opportunity of asking our people matters relating to 
administration and policy in that great Department. After 
all, the light of day does not do any harir, it is a great 
thing to have that happen and I am not anxious in any way 
to stifle discussion there. I really think, Mr. Chairman, 
that with Lands and Forests, while there are bound to be 
many questions asked on the Estimates, nevertheless, from 
a standpoint of really giving to our hon. members the 
information and the background of these things, more can 
be really done in the committee than anywhere else. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: That may well be, although I think 
if I had been able to attend the Committee meeting this 
morning — and I could not, because I was at the meeting 



March 29th, 1951, 



L-24 

of the Government Commissions Committee — according to 
the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod) I would have 
had no place to sit down. 

MR. MacLEOD: That is literally true. 

MR. FROST: "Well, if that is the case, I would 
say, Mr. Chairman, there is no reason why a Committee 
meeting should not be held in one of the committee rooms, 
Cojamittee Room No. 1 or Committee Room No. B, where there 
would be more room. 

■ MR. MacLEOD: V^y was it not? 

MR. FROST: I will ask the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Ghallies) about that, but I do not think there is any 
reason why we should have our hon. members in the Black 
Hole of Calcutta, or anything like that. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, 
it was for that very reason and in the hope that some of 
the business could be done that way that I was going to 
suggest to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) that he 
take Lands and Forests next week. That would leave only 
one departmental Estimate for the whole week, which is 
surely not an unreasonable assignment. However, all I 
will ask him to do now is to use his best judgment and 
not push the thing too hard. 

MR. FROST: I would say — 

IVER. CO-X. Mr. Chairman — 

THE CHAIRMAN: The hour is now 6.22. I do now 
leave the chair and we will reconvene again at 8.15. 

MR. FROST: No, eight o'clock. An hour and 
three-quarters. 

SOME hon. MEMBERS: Oh, ,oh. 



March 29tli^ 1951. 



L- 25 

MR. NIXON; You are getting to be a slave driver, 
do you know that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: 8.15. 

The Committee took recess at 6, £2 of the clock 

p.m. 



AA - 1 

The Committee of Supply resumed at 8.15 of the 
clock p.m. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Chairman, I am going to call the Department of Labour 
estimates next. It had been my intention to call the 
estimates of the Department of Lands and Forests, but 
the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod) mentioned 
the fact that there was no room in the Committee room 
for him, then the hon. Leader of the Opposition, (Mr. 
Jolliffe) felt that it vi/ould be better if the Committee 
met further and that the consideration of these estimates 
be postponed to one day next week, and that we would 
61ean up these estimates of the Department of Labour and 
Treasury to-night. 

I am most anxious that all information possible 
should be given to the Committee of Lands and Forests. 

Mr. Chairman, with respect to the meeting, I 
asked the Hon. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Scott) 
about it. It was called in the Hon. Mnister's (Mr. 
Scott) board room in the Department of Lands and Forests 
due to the fact that the maps and other material were 
there, for the consideration of the hon. members 
Apparently the hon. members of the Committee sat around 
the table in the board room and the others, including 
the Hon. Minister (Mr. Soctt) sat on the sidelines. 
Any other hon. members who wanted to come in were per- 
fectly welcome. Members of the Press were welcome. 
If that does not meet the situation, let us straighten 
is out here and now, because we hold these meetings 
in order to £.ive information to the hon. members and 



March 29th, 1951 



M - 2 

to the public. 

As a result of what the Hon. leader of the 
Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) said, I consulted the Hon. 
Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Scott) this evening, 
after the recess. We are allowing these estimates to 
stand over until, I hope, Monday night at the very- 
latest, because we are going to have our own tim cut 
out to wind up the Session of the House. I will move 
that forv;ard to Monday night, which will mean that this 
Committee can meet to-morrow morning, and on Monday 
morning. I hope that will be satisfactory and that we 
can have a discussion of these questions. There are 
no holds barred in connection with the questions the hon. 
members can ask of the officials and of the Hon. Minister, 
(Mr. Scott) for that matter. 

Is there anything further that I can do in this? 
This is done to give the hon. members of this House the 
fullest possible information, 

I do not want, nor does the Hon. Minister (Mr. 
Scott) want this to be just a mere matter of form. Je 
are doing this in order to give the hon. members informa- 
tion. I do hope, as a result or the meetings or this 
Committee, it will not be necessary to endlessly rehash 
a lot of material discussed in the meetings of the committee. 
The committee is there to give all of the hon. members 
of the House information concerning that Department. 
As I explained this afternoon, there are twelve hon. 
members on that committee, but that does not prevent 
any hon, member of this House going to the Committee, and, 
indeed, although an hon. member of the House may not be 



AA - 3 



a voting member, I am quite satisfied that the Hon. 
Minister {l&r. Scott) would be glad, indeed, to have 
any of the hon. members of the House, as a matter of 
-.courtesy — as has always been the case idth respect 
to committees of this House -- ask question. s It is not 
a select committee; it is a committee of the House. 
I am not one for being too formal. I want to give to 
the hon. members of the House the fullest possible 
information. The fact of the matter is that the De- 
partment of Lands and Forests is doing a tremendous 
work. The ramifications of the Department of Lands 
and Forests in forest management, insect control, fire 
control, reforestation — a great variety of subjects — 
are subjects of the utmost interest. The committee is 
formed in order to give those who are really interested 
in the v\;ork of that department, the fullest information. 

I again say that I do not want this to be a 
matter of form. If the hon. members of this House are 
not satisfied with the place the Commit oee met this morning 
then let us get a place which is more satisfactory. 
I quite concur with the Hon. Minister (Mr. Scott) that 
the room vvhere the meeting was held this morning, being 
one where the maps and other material was, lent itself 
to the convenience of the hon. members of the House. 
I understood from the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. 
MacLeod) that he had to stand up against the wall, or 
something of that sort. I inquired. He had as good a 
seat as the Hon. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Scott). 
Now, let us get this straightened away, 

lER. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): I am very glad 



March 29th, 1951. 



AA - 4 



the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) spoke as he did. 
If he is quoting the Hon. Minister of Lands and Forests 
correctly, I suggest that he has not been given an 
actual picture of the situation ii that room this morn- 
ing. You say that the meeting was held over there because 
the maps vjere available and there was the Committee table 
and seats on the side, and that the officials sat on the 
sidelines, and the rest of the space v^as available to 
the hon. members of the Gomm^ittee and any hon. members 
of the Legislature — 

MR. FROST: No, the members of the Committee. 
The rest of you should sit with the Hon. Kinister (Mr. 
Scott) on the sidelines. 

MR. MacLEOD: I am not accusing the Hon. 
Minister (Mr. Scott) of making it difficult for the hon, 
members to attent the Committee. That was not my point 
at all. I simply pointed it out so the House will know 
that the meeting was held in a very small room, where 
there was seating accommodation for the hon. members 
of the Committee and the officials, and one additional 
chair. Actually, some of the officials had to sit in 
a little vestibule between the Board Room and p resumably 
the office of the Hon. Minister (Mr. Scott) or his 
deputy. That was the situation. If three or four 
hon, members of this House, had gone to that Committee 
room this morning, they would not have found a place to 
even stand, let alone sit. So much for the actual 
physical set-up. There was no room for anybody there 
this morning, 

I think the hon. members of the Committee who 



March 29th, 1951 



AA - 5 



are in the House to-night will corroborate that, if they 
choose to speak. 

During the time I was in the room this morning, 
I believe the ComDiittee heard from the heads of one or 
two divisions of the Department. The Committee 
adjourned before it heard from more than three. I 
do not think that the hon. members of the Committee 
would for a moment suggest that what took place there 
this morning makes it unnecessary for the hon. members 
of the House to discuss the estimates of the Department 
of LaJids and Forests. If one were to follow the 
logic and reasoning of the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr, 
Frost) insofar as the function of this Committee is 
concerned, then we would have to draw the conclusion 
that what the Committee — 

IHR. FROST: I do not wish the hon. member for 
Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod) to misinterpret what I say. 
The point is that the Dommittee is there in order that 
any hon.' raember of this House can secure the fullest of 
information. That does not bar that particular hon. 
member of the House, of course, from coming before the 
Committee of Supply ahd asking questions; but certainly 
it must obviate the necessity of asking endless questions 
on technical matters Vi;hich are available to the hon. 
members in that Committee. I would tcrpe that these 
Committees would provide ready menas of getting in- 
formation without having endless repetition and dis- 
cussion. After all, I assume the hon. members of the 
House are interested in getting inforgiation for the 
sake of information, and that it is not a question of 



M - 6 

meeting in the committee and then rehashing everything 
which is said in the committee. Surely, if information 
is required -- and that is what we are so anxious to 
give — that is the place to get it, and it avoids 
the necessity of asking questions on a host of technical 
subjects here, because vie put before you the men who are 
running the various branches. 

MR. MacLEOD: Frankly, I do not know what we 
are arguing about. 

MR. FROST: iOie hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. 
MacLeod) said that the rpom was so crowded he had to leave 
the meeting of the Committee before it was over, because 
there was no room. 

MR. MacLEOD: That is exactly the case. 

MR. FROST: Surely that cannot be right, 
r MR. MacLEOD: It is the case. I ask the Hon. 
Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Grummett ) as to 
whether there v;as accommodation for any hon. members 
of this House i^ that room this morning. V/as there? 

UR, J. L. McDonald (Stormont): Mr. Chairman, 
there was a chair beside me on my left. There was never 
a man sat on it; nothing but an ash tray, while the 
meeting was in session. 

MR. W. J. GRUMETT (Cochrane South): Mr. 
Chairman, I attended the meeting this morning. It 
was crowded, all right. Undoubtedly the intention of 
the Hon. Minister (Mr. Scott) was good. He most likely 
thought that only the hon. members of the Committee would 
be attending; but, had there been more than four or 
five hon. members of the House attending, undoubtedly they 



March 29th, 1951. 



AA - 7 

would have to stand up. 

In ooimection with the Committee, Mr. Chairman, 
I agree with the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Prost ) that 
we ought to put off these estimates until we have at 
least one or two other meetings, V/e hard from the heads 
of three different departments this morning. Vfe 
were most interested in what they had to say. We 
want to hear from the rest of them* Vfe would like 
to be able to recall some of the other heads of 
departments and ask them questions. "fe put off part 
of it this morning so that the heads could give us an 
outline of their different departments* 

The Hon. Prime Minister (Mr* Frost) suggested 
that we hold a meeting again to-morrow morning. The 
Hon. Minister of Mines (Mr. Gemmell ) is holding his 
meeting in the Mines Library to-morrow at ten o'clock 
a.m. There are several of us who are on this Com- 
mittee who wish to attend the meeting. I wonder if 
it could be arranged with the Hon. Minister of Lands and 
Forests (Mr* Scott) to call his meeting at, say, eleven- 
thirty a.m. Vfe might finish the Mines committee 
meeting by eleven-thirty and it would give us a chancy, 
those of us who wish to learn something about these 
departments, to attend both meetings, instead of having 
to decide which one we are going to give up. 

HON. H. R. SCOTT (Minister of Lands and Forests): 
Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, I missed this discussion 
this afternoon. I am coming into it a little cold. 
I might assure the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. 
MacLeod), it was with the best intentions in the 



AA - 8 

world that I held it in that room. Vfe have had many- 
large meetings in that room. The board table accom- 
modates twelve, which is the number of the membership 
of the Committee. V/e would be only too happy to 
hold it where there is more space. However, the 
Honi Minister for Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod) did not have 
to stand, because I brought him out a nice leather 
upholstered chair, from my office, he will remember. 

The hon. member for Cochrane South (Mr. 
Grummett) will remember that I suggested we hold 
another meeting to-morrow morning, but he brought 
up the point of the Mines Committee, Monday morning 
was suggested for another committee meeting. The 
feeling was that some of them might be there for it. 
So, it was left to the Chairman of the Committee to 
convene at the earliest possible date, to suit the 
convenience of the hon. members. Is that not your 
understanding? 

IVTR. GRma-IETT : That is right, but I understood 
the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) to suggest that v/e 
hold another meeting to-morrow, and he was giving per- 
mission that we hold one, 

MR, SCOTT: I would be only too happy to fall 
in line with your suggestion, at eleven-thirty tomorrow 
morning and arrange that ray staff be there. 

MR. FROST: And also Monday morning, and we can 
go on with the estimates Monday night. 

im. SCOTT: I am only too happy to have the 
Committee discuss these things. The discussions might 
be more intelligent than they might be otherwise. 



March 29th^ 1951 



AA - 9 

MR. MacLEOD: That is just the point. Frankly, as 
I understood the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost ) this 
afternnon, ^e was suggesting to the House that since that 
Committee had met and perhaps would meet again, and 
after it had had a meeting or two, there would be no 
reason for the esti:.:ates from the Department of Lands 
and Forests not going through with a minimum of 
discussion. 



(TAKE "BB" FOLLOV/S) 



BB-1 

ivJR. FR03T: I would think so, I would think it v/ouid 
very greatly reduce discussion by doing that, 

I'jR. IlacLuJJOD: The point is this, the standing commi- 
ttee on agricultureal appointed by this House meets every year 
at least once, and the discussions — 

IM. FROST: Let me point out to the hon. meraber 
(iJT. MacLeod), the cormuittee on sericulture meets, but the 
conmittee on agriculture discusses specific things. V/e have 
appointed this committee to give to the hon. members of the 
xiouse the v.ddest scope. I might say, Mr, Chairman, I am 
anxious that at the meetings tomorrow morning and Monday morn- 
ing it be wide open to the press, as the meeting v;as this 
morning. These are public meetings and they are for the in- 
formation of the press. Everyt" ing that is information 
for us, is ' information to the public. How, let us do that. 

I would say to the hon. member (lir. MacLeod) that surely with 

are 
these meetings there/ a host of questions you may want to ask 

that will be ansv/ered in this comiittee v;hich will render it 

unnecessary- to repeat them here. That was the point I .'lade 

this afternoon. 

lit. jjiil ISON: Mr. Chairman, I v\;as informed 
that the press was excluded from the meeting this 
morning and I had one complaint from one representative of 
the press that he asked the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests 
(Mr. ocott) if he could go in and he was told, "No''. 

IvIR. SCOTT t.I would like very much to know who the 
member of the press \<ias» 

i-R. jjILM.IoCM: I will tell the hon. Minister (Mr, 
Scott) privately'-. 

IvIR. SCOTT: You have stated one member of the press 



March 29, 1951. 



BB-2 



ap reached me. One member approaphed me this morning. 

The committee was sitting at the time and I told 
him the secretary of the press gallery was taking the minutes 
of the meeting. He was quite welcome to go in but he said he 
would not do so, that it was all right. Is that who it was? 

MR. DENMISON: Mo, it was not. 

m. SCOTT: V/ell, then, he did not approach me. 
How, who was it? 

I'R, DENNISON: To tell the truth, Mr. Chairman, I do 
not know this person's name. 

SOME hon. I EMBERS: Oh, oh. 

m, SCOTT: Vi/ho was it? 

MR. DENNISON: I kiow his face but I could not tell 
his name if I were to drop dead right now. fhat is the truth. 

AN hon. MEMER: Drop dead. 

MR. SCOTT: I would like to go a little further. 
Immediately after setting up this committee I wanted to have 
meetings immediately. Tuesday, two of the Opposition, three 
of our own group, I do not remember how many of the Liberal 
group, were attending other committee meetings; V/ednesday 
it was the same; Thursday, it was the same. I discussed with 
the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jollif f e ) and this 
Tuesday morning was the first morning, 

we could have this meeting. V/e held it . ' ' 'j 

at the earliest possible moment. I am sorry it could not 
have been held earlier. I would have liked to have two, 
three or four of these meetings and I am only too happy 
to fall in with the suggestion. 

MR. FROST: The Committee will be hold either in 
Committee Room No. 1 or Committee Room No. 2 tomorrow morning. 



March 29, 1951. 

BB-3 

notices be on the desks in the course of a short time. I 
would ask the committee, please, if they require a further 
meeting after tomorrow morning, to meet on Jbnday morning so 
we can take the Department of Lands and Forests Estimates on 
Monday night. That ought to give everybody a better chance. 

^E. fecLEOD: I'Ir. Chairman, I am sorry to continue 
this disQussion but I want to make myself very clear since 
the hon. Prime Minister (Jlr. Frost) has singled me out. 

M. FROST: I have not singled you out, you singled 
yourself out. You said this afternoon it v;as too crowded, 

MR. MacLEOD: You made a statement here tonight after 
you talked to the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr, 
Scott) which left me with the impression that I 
had misre pre sainted the facts concerning the meeting this morn- 
ing. I insist what I said this afternoon was accurate, 
and there is no reason in the world why this should develop 
into a battle of brains between the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) and myself. I feel firmly convinced that the setting 
up of this committee was a very wise thing to do and I think 
that when it has had an opportunity to meet this Session and 
at succeeding Sessions, it is going to make it possible to 
have a much more intelligent discussion of this importance 
department of government. On the other hand, I think the 
hon. Prime Minister (fir. Frost) has a little tendency to 
accuse hon, members of the House of asking foolish, frivolous, 
questions . 

HON. W, GRIESINGER (Minister of Planning and Develop- 
ment): That is true. 

MR. PfecLEOD: I think you faired better than you 
deserved yesterday afternoon. I do' not think the questions 



BB-4 

directed to you missed the mark. 

MR. GRIESINGER: A lot of frivolous questions. 

MR. G. E. PARK ( Dovercourt ) : A lot of questions un- 
answered, too, 

MR. MacLECD: >7ould the hon. members of the Opposi- 
tion concur that the hon. Minister, pf ilanning and Development 
(l.ir. Gr-v8singer) vjas asked foolish .-questions? I do not think 
you can be serious, 

MR, FROST: Perhaps now we have everything smoothed 
out and the committee is meeting tomorrow morning and Monday 
morniiiG in a largor room, and I am putting tho Esti.aates off 
untill Monday night, Berhaps we can go on with the department 
of Laboiir and see if all the questions are answered to the 
satisfaction of the hon. members. 

MR. MacLEOD: I want to say again, the tenor and tone 
of the hon. P¥ime Minister's (Pfr. Frost) remarks tonight is 
simply a build-up for attacking hom. members of the Opposi- 
tion who -may, on Monday wantto question the hon. Minister of 
Lands and Forests (Mr. Scott). That is exactly what it is. 

MR. GHAIRI^IAN: Order. 

MR. DEMISON: Mir. Chairman, a question of privilege. 

MR. FROST: Let us hear the question. 

m. DENNISON: Jfr. Chairman, on a point of privilege, 
I would like to send a note to the hon. Minister of Lands 
and Forests (Mr. Scott) containing the name of the reporter 
who complained to me this morning • 

MR. FROST: All right, go ahead. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister ): Department 
of Labour. 



March 29, 1951. 



BB-5 

HON. C. DALEY (Minister of Labour): Mr. Chairman, I 
am glad we got that other meeting over, I was hoping to 
approach this House -in spirit of friendliness and I could 
see if that other meeting kept on there was going to be a lot 
of animosity around here that might well reflect into my 
field. 

MR. PARK: Never fear. 

MR. SALSBERG: No danger. 

M. DALEY: Ifr. Chairman, in introducing the Estimates 
of the Department of Labour for the coming year, I am going 
to present a brief statement regarding my home city because I 
think that it indicates and makes a point as to what is 
developing in this province of Ontario. I can recall a few 
years ago in this House when hon. members were making speeches 
either on the Spi-^ech from the Throne or on the Budget, 
reference was mde to their home communities, and tlieir home ridi^ 
I must say, as i recall many speeches that I have heard here, 
I have found that these speeches were not only very interest- 
ing, but most educational. They kept the House informed as to 
what actually was developing in the various parts of the P^ov- 
yince,, parts that they may not have an opportunity to visit. 

Now, this is not very long, but I did secure a few 
statistics from the city of St. Cathareines which is my home 
aiity, as to the development that has taken place there in the 
last few years, namely, from 1943 when I first became an 

iiiember of this legislature. Now, in 1943 in St, 
Catharines the assessment was $ 29,330,774 and the tax rate 
was 32^ mills, and the population was 34,599. In 1951 the 
assessment is hp39,9^5,000. I know you are not going to 
remember all these figures but it will be in Hansard and I 



]^1arch 29, 1951. 



BB-6 

think are interesting. The tax rate is 575 mills and the 
population is 37,543. In 1943 there were 7,0Sl dwellings, 
279 retail stores. In 1951 there are 5,410 dwellings, and 
4,016 retail stores. The bank clearings in 1943 were 
^7^,250,000. Today the bank clearings are $159,130,000. 
Building permits in 1943 were |633, 000. ; in 1950 building per- 
mits totalled §3,450,000. There were 99 manufacturing con- 
cerns in 1943 employing 11,100 persons and the payroll was 
$20 million, an average wage of $1,^20. per year. In 1950 
there were 110 manufacturing concerns employing 15,930 
persons and the wage paid amounted to |39, 316,000. or the 
average wage per person was ^2,1+^6. 

In addition to that, just outside the city of St. 
Catharines is Grantham township. The assessment in Grantham 
was in 1943 $^93,000. and the population was 5,644; there were 
3,124 dwellings. In 1951 the Grantham assessment is 
$4,723,000, and the population is 12,490; there are 5,600 
dwellings. 

Now, in addition to that, a new area has been 
annexed for industrial purposes to the city of St. Catharines 
and I am advised that nearly all this land h"'^ already been 
taken up for industrial purposes. General Motors are building 
a big plant that is estimated will cost about §3,000,000, there. 
Packard Electric are building a new plant. They already have 
one in the city but this is a new plant in that neighbourhood 
of ijol million. V/inters Transport Company are building a huge 
serfflce place there, and in addition to that the school de- 
bentures issued since 1943 in the city of St, Catharines 

and the area 
were §1,221,^77. /of this annexed land is 13,040 acres. 

Now, the general hospital and the Hotel Dieu in 



ci 



BB-7 

this city are building for 164 new beds— that Is the General 
Hospital-and 24 basinettes. The Hotel Dieu will have 125, 
both new and old beds when these works are completed. 

Now, ray purpose in presenting that was not particu- 
larly to stress St. Catharines, but to show that in this 
province there is tremendous industrial development that is 
taking place. 

The report I got from the factory inspection branch, 
that is the department that examines the plans of all new 
industrial buildings, shows that the value of approved 
buildings from April 1st, 1950 to February 2^, 1951 had a 
value of |pl03,450,000. new proposed industrial construction. 
The number of plans approved from 1949 to 1950 were 1,069 
and for 1950-51 were 1,440. The value of the buildings in 
1949-50 were ;ip65,000,000. I am just using round figures. 
In 1950-51, $115,000,000. Now, as you know, this only re- 
present factory construction or stores and office buildings 
of more than two stories high so it is indicative of the 
tremendous industrial development that is taking place in this 
province which leads one to think that the Department of 
Labour, because we have a part to play in the industrial 
development, are continually expanding and finding it neces- 
sary to ask for more money for our Estimates. The difficulties 
we found in conciliation and the settling of disputes has 
not lessened, due to the fact that for more 
than a year now~~I do not know how muc|i more — but for more 
than a year we have had the threat or the fear of wage and 
commodity controls. It has been talked about, it has been 
in the newspapers, people have been expecting that something 



March 29, 1951. 



BB-a 

along that line was going to happen, and with what result? 
The workers a.nd industry because of this continual talk of 
price and wage control got to feeling that this thing was 
going to happen some day almost out of a clear sky and that 
the workers are not going to be caught with low wages because 
they are naturally desirous of having their wages up before 
a freeze takes place, . The manufacturers and the merchants 
are equally concerned that they will not be caught with too 
small a mark-up. We have read today or yesterday where in 
a great many retail stores, the percentage of profits allowed 
is going to be fixed and all this, I say, is a lot to 
contribute to the demands that we are being continually con- 
fronted with from the workers and has, I believe, contributed 
to a large extent the exceptional profits that are disclosed 
in the financial statements of various companies. I am not 
opposed to big profits, I believe in good profit® because if 
a company makes a good profit in a good year, it can stand a 
lean year. I know I would much rather be working for an 
industry that was making a good profit because I think the 
chances are better that a profitable industry will pay good 
wages and will have y^od conditions, better than if we have 
a profit that was scr^iping the bottom of the barrel. I do 
not blame labour for endeavouring to get a fair share of the 
fruits of their efforts. 

I t hink our responsibility as a Department of Labour 
is two-fold. V/e have the responsibility of endeavouring to 
improve the lot of the workers, to eliminate imsafe practices 
and eliminate hazards, and also to see that industry itself 
has a chance to carry on and retain initiative so that the 
great incentive that has built this country and particularly 



,-, - f o ■ 



March 29, 1951. 



BB-9 

this province of which I speak, shall not be destroyed. Now, 
from the consumer angle, I think also the fear of possible 
scarcity that we are continually being told about has en- 
couraged the public to purchase far beyond their actual 
needs and their desire to buy some commodities has practically 
eliminated competition. Organization of workers has greatly 
developed, and I think that will be disclosed later on. 
I say again that with this tremendous industrial expansion 
and development that I do not believe has been exceeded any 
place I know of, has there been less industrial disruption 
than we have had right here in this province which would 
indicate, I think, that our labour laws dealing with labour 
relations and the various things, under the Department of 
Labour, must be reasonably sound. 

Now, you will notice in the Estimates an item of 
$6 million for capital expenditure. Now, one of the boys 
saw that and said, "I'/hatever is that itf6 million?". Well, it 
is really just a book entry because it is payed out for holi- 
days with pay. 'fe sell the stamps to industry and they are 
placed in the books of the workers and then returned to us» 
This #6 million comes from that. It is interesting that 
this amount at the beginning was $375 the first year this 
Act came into being and it now totals ^6 million and when 
you figure that it has nothing to do with large industry 
where they have a fixed method of giving holidays, they do 
not require stamps, it is only for the stamps that we pur- 
chase from the construction industry and for people not of 
industries, who have ceased to be employed. '/hen these 
people are changing their employment they are given these 



BB-10 

stamps. I thought that was very interesting, that since this 
Vacations with Pay Act came into being over -^i.17 million 
has been paid out to the workers for those vacations. 

Now, I say I welcome closer interest of the trade 
unions in industry. All the inspectors in the world will 
avail but little if we do not have the co-operation of labour, 
I might say that yesterday I had a meeting with some of the 
heads of labour organizations in an endeavour to see what 
we can develop in a manner that will give labour its proper 
place in accident-prevention work carried on in this province. 
I have great faith that the people in this province will con- 
tinue their co-operation with myself and the officers of my 
department who help solve many of these difficulties. Ex- 
perience tells me that, of course, goodwill is a great factor 
in the development and continuing of good labour relations. 
It is because of this that I suggest an additional $62,000. 
this year will be sufficient to enable us to continue our 
work in a reasonably satisfactory, manner. 

I would like to make reference to certain accounts 
appearing ftn the public press in which it was stated that a 
higher status should be given to the Department of Labour 
and that a much larger budget should be placed at the dis- 
posal of the Department. I would like to say, Mr. Chairmna, 
as long as I have been hon. Minister, I certainly have 
never considered this Department lacking in importance and 
I feel confident that the hon. Prime Minister (Mir. Frost) 
and my colleagues in the government and the hon. members 
on this side of the House are awaire of the importance of 
the work done by this Department. I have very fine offi- 
cials, I think anyone who knows the officials in my 



March 29, 1951. 



BB-11 

Department, my deputy and Mr. Louis Fine the chief concilia- 
tion officer and his staff are conscioustio s serious men 
endeavouring to do a good job in a fair and competent manner, 
I think I can also safely say that they will continue to do 
so and if and when more money is required for the operation 
of this department that it will be available. 

Now, I would like to say a word about the amount of 
money voted to carry out the functions of the department. I 
need only go back to March, 31, 1947 when the total Budget 
was {;i.437,000. and for the year 1951-52 the Budget is 
4.;1,130,000. , ar?.v increase of $63,000. this year. It has been 
a gradual increase, because as I say, the industrial activity, 
the increasing volume of it throughout the province requires 
more service and greater demands on the Department of Labour 
as it does on other departments. I can say without feat of 
contradiction that since I have been hon. Minister that the 
continuing increasing of demands on the government, we have 
never been refused, and I can also say that 1 have, with 
one exception, when there was about 4p20,000, that 
each Budget has been employed for our means and v;e have not 
requested a lot of money we do not require. 

M. VaSI'IER: Do you think the means were ample? 

ril. DALEY: I think so, if I did not I would certainly 
request more. The department is continuing to expand and I 
can say that I do not think the end of its expansion is in 
sight. I realize we have not reached the acme of perfection. 
The population is growing and our industries are growing. 
I do not agree with a lot of people v\^o seem to think that 

"" any time ,lean times may hat this province and this 

but 
country, I cannot visualize that for a number of years. 



March 29, 1951. 

BB-12 

It seems to me the time c£ growth is here and will be for a 
considerable length of time. 

I think our schools and our educational system has 
improved to a greater extent and while probably not perfect 
yet, has been placed within the reach of the young people 
coming on who have faith and confidence in this country to 
develop and receive a fine education and fit them for their 
activities as good citizens, 

I think a great many of the hon. members in this 
Assembly, as I look around, started if not quite as humbly 
as myself, perhaps almost as humbly, to go to work at an 
early age and I think I can realize possibly more than people 
who were not in that position the value of a good education 
for our youth. I hope they appreciate that and avail them- 
selves of it and we do all in our power to see that it is 
available to them but I still believe there is no substitute 
for hard work and initiative to achieve success and happiness. 
It is a very fine thing and it is something that I absolutely 
believe in to make provision for some unfortunates who have 
some reason beyond their control, become so that is impossible for 
them to look after themselves. That is a great obligation which 
we have . 

(TAKE "CC" F.OLLOV/S) 



CC-1 

That is a great obligation that we have. But I also thank 
that by providing opportunity educationally, and making the 
facilities available to our people, they should put 
something in, there must be work and initiative and a desire 
to progress. Our forefathers worked hard and with great 
ability to make this an agricultural province and in our time 
it has changed, not completely, because we are wtill a great 
agricultural province, but we are now a great industrial 
province which opens up greater fields for our sons and our 
daughters and the young people coming into this province. 

The Fair Employment Practices Act of 1951 and the 
Female Employees Fair Remuneration Act, 1951, which will be 
administered in a new branch of the Department, will mean 
an expenditure for additional staff and equipment. At this 
juncture it is impossible to say just how much money will be 
required, so we did not place it in the estimates, because 
there is no experience, there has been nothing established on 
whidh to found an Estimate. However, the one Act does not 
come into force until January, 1952 and The Fair Emplo3nTient 
Practices Act will be operated for less than a whole fiscal 
year. It is my thought that we will start it, as I have al- 
ready suggested, with a Diredtor, a man already in the 
Department, and add • staff as it becomes necessary. 

I assume many hon. members are familiar with indus- 
trial relations and will realize that the conciliation ser- 
vices have done a reasonably good job in this province. 
You will appreciate just how good a job was done when I 
tell you that six men — and that is, what/We have, Mr. 
Fine and five assistants — have dealt with over 500 
disputes during the year. In more than 60 per cent of these 



March 29, 1951. 



CC-2 

cases, they settled the disputes, and most of the balance were 
of coiirse referred to boards of conciliation. Any number of 
persons have presumed to criticize the operation of The Labour 
Relations Act, and the procedures established thereunder for 
settling disputes and effecting conciliation agreements. Of 
course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the fi- 
gures I gave you will show that a reasonably good job is being 
done, as we have had not more, I do not think, than a half a 
dozen strikes, after hundreds of matters have been referred to 
conciliation. That, is the real test. 

There is another branch of the Department, about which 
I desire to say something, and that is the Apprenticeship 
Branch. In my opinion, there is no more worthwhile activity 
carried on in the Department of Labour than the Apprenticeship 
training programme given by the Department of Labour. Under 
the Apprenticeship Act, certain trades are designaitied to which 
apprenticeship training is compulsory, and an employer who 
takes anylad betvreen the ages of 16 and 21 years must enter 
into a contract of apprenticeship if he retains him for a 
period of longer than 90 days. Almost all the building trades 
are designated, as well as the motor vehicle repair trade. 
In the next fiscal year we shall offer a course of instruction 
lasting on the average of 9 weeks to approximately 1350 
apprentices, at a cost of C'3f"P,000., which will be borne 
by the Ontario and the Dom.inion government. The Dominion 
government shares on a 50-50 basis. 

In the Speech from the Throne, it was stated that a 
new school would be built to house the classesin apprentice- 
ship training. This will be very welcome news to all who 



ilar. 29, 1951. 

CC-3 

share my great interest in apprenticeship. We must never 
forget that it is only through an organized system of appren- 
ticeship that we can preserve the skills so vital to a 
provincial economy. I sincerely hope that this new school, -- 
and I know I am a little fearful with the restriction on steel 
and the other materials that it will possibly have to be 

delayed — but nothing vvould please me more than to have a 

the 
part in developing a new trade school where / young men de- 
sirous of entering a trade would be given fine technical 
instruction, because I think — and I may possibly be wrong 
in this -- there is great opportunity in this growing country 
for tradesmen. I believe there is as fine an opportunity 
for tradesmen to develop and bedome skilled mechanics and go 
on into becoming contractors as there is in many of the pro- 
fessions, and I think there is a lot of fine boys in this 
country v^o would do well to consider entering a trade, even 
at a lower rate of pay for the first few years. I know when 
I learned my trade as a carpenter, I got |3. a week for the 
first year, ^l^. for the second, and.H^5. the third, and it was 
pretty tough, even in those days, getting along on that, 
Mechanies wages are certainly not what they can get now in 
industry, but in the long run in the long pull, I believe 
a young man today would be well-advised to consider enter- 
ing a t -ade, where there is good employment and gainful 
employment . 

In our examination of plans, I pointed out the tre- 
mendouTS development t«here, 103 million or so, this last year 
we had to put two new men on there, two engineers, just to 
examine these plans and approve of them or suggest improve- 
ments that would meet the requirements of The Factory, Shop 



CC-4 

and Office Building Act. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, I have touched on some of the 
branches of the Department and said something of their acti- 
vities. No one realizes any better than myself that the 
volume of the work in the department is increasing. I am 
aware that such increased activities will mean an increase in 
staff, but there is one thing more than anything else v\diich I 
accept as a fact, and that is in the particular skills re- 
quired in our department, except for the routine office work, 
it requires people with special knov;ledge and special skill, 
and it is just not too easy to find these people, particularly 
for conciliation work. It is very difficult to find men who 
have that certain something that is required to make good 
conciliation officers. 

I am prepared to expand the staff of the Department 
as our future needs dictate, but I am certainly not prepared 
to rush in and require a whole lot of money and build up a 
staff without '-aving a definite job and a purpose for each one 
of them to do. 

I want to assure hon. members of the committee that 
more conciliation officers, factory inspectors, boiler 
inspectors, apprenticeship inspectors, and other staffs 
will be taken on our staff as quicki'y as we can get com- 
petent people and have a job for them to do. In any event, 
Mr. Chairman, I feel that the Estimates which I have pre- 
sented to the House for approval will meet the demands of 
the Department for this year, with the exception of the 
operation of The Fair Employment- Practices and Fair Remunera- 
tion for Female Employees, and that money, if required, will 
be found elsewhere. 



March 29, 1951. 



CC-5 

MR. G. E. PARK (Dovercourt ) : Mr. Chairman, on this 
Main Office budget, I would like to make one or two observa- 
tions. I would first of all like to say that I think the hon. 
Minister's CMr. Daley) staff does an excellent job, by and large. 
I sometimes think that this Legislature fails to give them the 
weapons by which they should do that job better, but I think 
that within the scope of the legislation, they are doing a very, 
very good job indeed, and I would like to echo the hon. 
Minister's {FjT. Daley) commendation of the conciliation service 
of the Department of Labour. I think llr. Fine's efforts, and 
those of his associates, are serving the people of this pro- 
vince in the very best way. Certainly I regard Louis Fine 
as one of the ace conciliation officers in the Dominion of 
Canada, I do not think that you could go from one end to the 
other and find a man more qualified than he is, or better able 
to handle the job that he performs. And I think that his 
staff, under his direction is doing the best job that they 
can do . 

But again, the problem that we face with the 
Department of Labour is this, I think, that the expansion of 
the Departmer* -tself has not kept pace with the expansion 
of the work ' the Department ought to be undertaking, 
Tlje hon. Minister (I^'Ir. Daley) in his remarks made a reference 
to the tremendous increase in the city of St. Catharines. 
That tremendous growth in St. Catharines today is repeated 
in community after community across this province and indeed 
in the province as a whole. 

m. DALEY: It is? 

MR. PARK: And as the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) 
well knows, has created new and different problems for his 



torch 29, 1951. 



cc-6 

Department and has put a heavier burden of vrork on him and 
the people that work in the Department of Labour. 

Now, I was very interested in the references that the 
hon. Minister {I'ic. Daley) made to the amount of money avail- 
able for the Department of Labour in 1937 as compared with 
the amount of money asked for in the Estimate that is before 
us today, or was .vailable in 1951. I am sorry that the 
hon. Minister (I/Ir. Daley) did not give us the amount of 
money that was available for the Department of Labour in 1943, 
because you may recall the speech made by the hon. member for 
Riverdale (Mr. Wismer ) on the expenditures that were being 
made by the various departments, and how they had added up 
in actual services they were rendering to the people of the 
province. '^Vhat is the per capita expenditure today? In 
terms of what that 57 ?S dollar will buy, what is the per capita 
expenditure that we are making in the labour field in the 
province of Ontario? And the hon. member for Riverdale (Mr. 
V/ismer) has put on Hansard this record, that is for 1943, the 
year ending March 31st, 1943, that the expenditure in terms 
of 1939 dollars represented 15 cents per capita. In 1951, 
the year just coming to a close now, I'ferch 31, 1951, the per 
capita expenditure in the field of labour in terms of 1939 
dollars was 14 cents. So, there has been, actually, in terras 
of the service that those dollars will produce, 
less money being spent in the Department of Labour, or there 
is less service available in the Departme:>t of Labour per 
capita than there was in 1943, when the hon. Minister (ftr. 
Daley) took over, taking into account the tremendous infla- 
tionary period that we are in, and the way that has reduced 

the value of the dollars that you are asking us to v. t© you 

here this evening. 

(TAKE "DD" FOLLOWS) 



i«larch 29th, 1951. 



DD-1 

So, in spite of the fact that there has been a very great 
industrial expansion, which the Hon. Minister (Mr .Daley) 
has mentioned, I suggest in all seriousness that the 
services which are avairafele from our Department of Labour 
have not kept pace X'jith that expansion, and if there is 
any criticism which should be levelled at the Department 
of Labour, it is that criticism. We really have not 
ventured into very many new fields to keep pace with the 
changing and growing industrial situation in the province 
of Ontqrio, V/e still do not, for example, have from the 
Department of Labour anything near the service material 
which is available from the Department of Agricult\;.re • 
for the farmers of this province. I said it in 1949. I 
repeated it in 1950, and I come back tt> it again in 1951* 
We are not producing for the industrial workers of this 
province, information which vrlll be of use to them such 
as the Department of Agriculture produces for the farmers 
which is of use to them. 

m. DALEY: I do not think that is a very fair 
comparison. 

MR. PARK: The hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) 
does not publish a regular document or a regular bulletin 
of any kind from his Department, other than the annual 
statement. A fev; weeks ago, the hon. Minister (Mr, Daley) 
started to issue regular Press statements. Prior to 
that time there have been no regular publications coming 
from the Department of Labour keeping track of trends in 
industrial relations in this province, keeping tjack of 
changed working conditions, keeping track of changed union 
agreements and that sort of thing, which service the 



DD-2 

Department of Labour ought to be performing, and which 
a great many depaitments of Labour on this continent are 
performing for the workers in their areas, 

A year ago the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) may 
remember I suggested that some such undertaking ought to 
be considered. He said he would give it some consideration, 
It is true that some of the conciliation reports from 
the Ontario Department of Labour find their way into the 
Federal Labour Gazette, and to that extnet, are available 
to the general public, but there is no regular publication 
coming from the Ontario Department of Labour to the workers 
of this province in the most industrialized, and I think, 
the most important industrial province in the Dominion 
of Canada. 

Look at the estimate for this year. Again, coming 
back to this fabulous estimate which runs into the Depart- 
ment of Labour each and every year, I call the attention 
of the hon, members to Vote 95, Jtera S: 
"Advertising: 
Publicity, Library Publications, Journals, 
Periodicals, Subscriptions, Membership 
Fees and News, Educational Work, Conferences, 
Speakers, Exhibitions, General Investi- 
gations, Legal Services, Administration 
of Justice, Litigation of Constitutional 
Questions and Other Matters, Witnesses and 
Interpreters, Other Legislation administered 
by the Department of Labour — " 
MR. SALSBERG: "Et cetera", 
MR. PARK: Yes; "et cetera". 



March 29th, 1951. 



DD-3 

MR, DALEY: I am glad they did not leave the "et 
cetera" out, too, 

MR. PARK: That will cover the Fair Employment 
Practices division for you, Mr. Minister (Mr. Daley), 
since you have not covered it in any other part of the 
Estimates . 

MR, DALEY: Of course, that does sound kind of 
bad, but you must realize that is merely to keep that 
account open. Few, if any, of those things, do we ever 
have a call for, but we might, and it has been felt that' 
there should be an open account there, I could cross 
out about three-quarters of those if that v;ould accomplish' 
any purpose, but we do run into the odd little expense, 
for v/hich we are supposed to have money. 

We try to build an estimate, and that is why I 
think that the Treasurer has never cut us down or objected 
to our estimates, because we hit them right on the beam 
for what we want. Of course, last year we were confronted 
with the cost of the Roach Report, which was paid out of 
that estimate. Otherwise, we would have spent very little 
of it, 

MR. PARK; May I suggest that I think that is the 
kind of estimate v;hich should be made if it is necessary, 
but keep an account open for such matters as legal services, 
administration of justice, litigation on constitutional 
questions, and other matters. Let us have that separated, 
at least, from publicity and library publications. There 
is no conceivable reason why those two things should be in 
the same vote. 

I think the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) would agree 



March 29th, 1951. 



DD-4 

that V7hen we vote Item S, we ought to be voting for 
advertising and publicity. That is the item on which I 
was going to speak, That item is not greatly different. 
Last year the same item was |ll,000. In 1950 to 1951 
you did isolate the litigation of constitutional and 
other questions, because in 1950 - 51, estimates, you 
put $5.00 in the estimates for the litigation of con- 
stitutional questions, and now you have taken it back 
into the general advertising one, 

MR. DALEY i You did not like it the v/ay it was, 
so I changed it, \^at more could I do? 

MR, PARK: I think what you shouru do is divide 
advertising from the other ones, so we can discuss 
advertising as a separate part. 

There is one question about which I would like 
to speak to the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) quite seriously 
for a few moments . He mentioned the question of 
apprenticeship and so on, I want to raise the question 
of the workers who find themselves without jobs and 
that they have not the necessary training to enter 
another job. It happens usually with workers over the 
forty-year mark. The hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) fcnows 
this to be a pretty serious problem at times. There 
are all sorts of reasons why industry is hesitant to 
take on workers over forty or forty-five years of age. 
It has become a special problem, because I think, as 
the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) knows, the Federal 
Department of Labour and the Department of the Hon, 
Minister (Mr. Daley), have had to concern themselves 
about the question on a great many occasions. 



DD-5 

, In the growing understanding which has been 
dc^veloping betweeh the Ontario Government and the 
Government at Ottawa, this is one field where that 
understanding has not yet produced results and where it 
could 1. reduce results merely by this government agreeing 
to implement an agreement it made with the Federal Govern- 
ment some time ago. The hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) may 
knov; about Schedule (f ) which is part of the Vocational 
Training Go-ordination Act of 1942. Under that Act the 
Federal Government undertakes to subsidize vocational 
training in those provinces which enter into agreement 
with it to provide such training under the various 
3chedules of the Act, The Act contemplates training 
of various classes of people such as youths, unemployed, 
veterans, apprentices, as well as assistance to vocational 
schools and to universities, I understand all the provinces 
have signed an agreement with the Federal Government under 
the Act. That is the information I have. Ontario is 
among the provinces which has signed an agreement but so 
far it h^.s not implemented it. Schedule (m) of the Act 
pertains to the training or retraining of workers who 
have become unemployed in the primary and secondary 
industries of the province. This would include just 
about anyone in the province who works for a living. The 
training courses which are made available to such unemployed 
people vary in nanmber from province to province, but 
there is a considerable number of these courses, both 
for men and women, including skilled trades as v/e under- 
stand the term, and others. By not implementing the 
agreement, Ontario has failed to set up training classes 



March 29th, 1951. 



DD-6 

under Schedule (m) , The net result is that unemployed 
workers in Ontario are not available to secure training 
or retraining facilities, which v/ould be available to 
them if they happened to be residents of other provinces. 
These training classes are free under the Act which we 
have failed to implement. In addition, some of the 
provinces make allowances available to these trainees. 

Under the Unemployment Insurance Act, the 
Commission may direct an employed person to a course of 
training and pay benefits while the course is being taken. 

This matter first came to my attention, as a 
matter of fact, during a conversation I had with one of 
the persons who is on the Advisory Committee of the Un- 
employment Insurance Commission for the Ontario region. 
He represents labour on that Advisory Committee. He was 
discussing with me the fefeling of the Unemployment In- 
surance Commission in the Province of Ontario that this 
schedule, which is already part of an agreement into 
which this province has entered 



(PAGE DD-7 FOLLOWS) 



..:aroh 29 th, 1951 



QD - 7 

shou:j.d be implemented and implemented quickly so that 
unemployed person, particularly those in the over forty 
age group, could be retrained and jobs found for them. 
The unemployment Insurance Commission makes allowance 
for workers under that particular schedule, a schedule 
of which we can telze advantage ccy time we want, and 
under which the Federal Government makes money available 
for those retraining projects. I sugfcest that obviously 
this is something the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) ought 
to look into, because, v;;hile it is true that we have not 
got anything like the unemployment we had a year ago, 
for which we are all very thankful, though vi/e are not 
too happy about the deteriorating international 
situation which Las brought ejq end to that unemployment 
situation, but, where there is a problem of workers 
being unemployed, I thinfe the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) 
will agree it is frequently among those people in the 
above forty years of age class v«ho find it difficult 
to be placed in industry and where facilities for retr- 
aining are not readily available. I would suggest to 
the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) that he — 

MR. DALEY : Could you show me a case — 

MR. PARK: ask the Unemployment Insurance 

Advisory Committee for the Ontario region to discuss 
the matter with hin. I think he will find that ife 
is not only the views of the labour people but of the 
people who are responsible for the administration of 
the Act, and it is the view of those who represent 
employers en the Advisory Committee as well as it is the 
vigw of the labour people that Schedule (m) ought 



DD - 8 



to be implemented in the Province of Ontario. It is 
available to us under the Vocational Training Co-or- 
dination Act of 1942. 

One advantage of having these courses together with 
Unemployment Insurance is that a claimant for benefit 
who is taking such a course will not be referred to 
other employment during his period of training. He 
is thus free to devote himself to learning hiw new 
occupation. In Ontario this is not the case. A 
claimant who would like to be retrained, is not only lacking 
in the facilities, but will ordinarily find himself 
referred to other employment in which he may not be 
interested, which may be a blind-alley job, or which 
may not be suitable in other respects. What this 
boils down to, is that Ontario is not showing the same 
consideration for those of its citizens who are vi/age 
earners as other Provinces. Since Ontario is the most 
highly industrialized Province in Canada, this neg- 
ligence is all the more to be condemned. 

MR. DALEY: Could the hon. member for Dovercourt 
(Mr. Park) give me an illustration of a man working in 
an industry ,, who reaches the age of 45 or 50? He is 
the fellow of whom you are thinking. He becomes 
unemployed. ii/hat v.'ould you want him retrained in — 
as a painter or something of that sort? 

MR. PARK: The retraining would be done on the 
basis of what jobs are opening, \.here the most likely 
possibilities are for getting jobs, and where his 
aptitude fits. At the moment I would suggest that a man 
of 40 or 45, becoming unemployed and needing retraining, 



March 29th, 1953b 



DD - 9 

might be treated as follows. One of the very obvious 
places V/here he could find a job, if he had any sort 
of training or elementary knov/ledge of airplane man- 
ufacturing ivould be in that industry. It would be a v 
very useful talent for him in finding a job at the 
present time. That is one example where you have a grow- 
ing employment situation. As the employment shifts, 
there will be ether industries vjith that situation 
developing. The fact of the matter is that here 
is a service which ought to be available to workers, 
particularly the group above forty and forty-five years 
of age. ¥e are not taking advantage of it because we 
have failed to implement an agreement which we signed 
subsequent to the passing of The Vocational Training 
Co-ordination Act of 1942. I bring that matter to 
the attention of the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley). If 
nothing more happens, or comes out of these estimates 
than that the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) takes action 
on Schedule (m), we mil have accomplished a great 
deal this evening. 

I do iiot think I am going to get very far on 
any of the other points, so I will not spend too much 
time on them. I would like to make this point, in 
passing. The Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) made mention 
of a meeting which was held yesterday morning with 
some of the trade unionists on the question of the 
develo|)ment of accident prevention in industry. The 
Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) was kind enough to suggest 
that I should attend that meeting. I had the 
opportunity of meeting with the union people and the 



^ 



March S9tii, 1951 • 

DD - 10 

officials of the Y/orkmen's Compensation Board, and 
the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley), and I think that the 
pDOspects coming out of that meeting are very good. 
I am hopeful that a year from now we will have 
developed much superior safety precaution system than 
exists at the presenttime; and, to the extent that 
the Hon. J.inister (Mr. Daley) has shown he has an 
open mind on this question, and that he is ready to 
give consideration to any proposals that are made. 
I think he is to be complimented. 



(TAKE "EE" FOLLOV'/S) 



29tii Marcli 



EE-1 

and I think that these prospects coming out of that meeting 
were very good, and I am hopeful that a year from now we 
will have developed a much superior safety precaution system 
than exist at the present time, and to the extent that the 
hon. Minister (Lfir, Daley) has shown he has an open mind on 
these questions, and is ready to give consideration to 
any proposals which are made, I think he is to be compliment- 
ed, I do hope, however, that I can get some action from him 
on schedule "M". 

MR. DAL3Y: I vi/ill certainly look into it. 

MR, L.F.K. FELL (Parkdale): Mr. Chairman, I rise to 
speak on this vote^ I had intended, as a matter of 

fact, to wait a little longer, but I rise as a result of 
some of the remarks made by the hon. Minister of Labor 
(Mr, Daley), and particularly on one point vjhich I have in 
mind. 

The hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) has said that he 
has the most efficient staff. The hon. member for Dovercourt 
(Mr. Park) endorsed that remark tonight. From the experience 
I have had vv-' V"i: the Department, particularly with the 
Conciliation staff, I wish to re-endorse that statement, 

and say that the staff is composed of very excellent 
people. The unfortunate thing is, as has also been said 
by the hon, member for Dovercourt (Mr, Park) they do not 
have enough of them, and I v;as struck by the remark by 
the hon. Minister of Labor (Mr, Daley) that there was an 
in1 'Tt'". n . on the part of the Department of Labor to enlarge 
their staff — 

MR, DALEY: May I just interrupt for a moment? 
You say we have not enough of them. You will admit that 



29th March 



EE-2 

just within the last week or so you found yourself in a little 
difficulty, and within a day, we had consulted about the 
matter, and on the same day, we cleaned up the trouble. 

MR. FiiLL: That is right, and if you will give me 
a chance to say something, I will mention that, and perhaps 
pay you another compliment . 

I vmnt to say it is the considered opinion not only 
of or;:: inized labor, but by the hon. members of this Legislature, 
that the staff is an excellent one, and is one vtiich is not 
only prepared, but anxious to give us all the services they 
possibly can. That they have been very successful is indicated 
by a further statement by the hon. Minister of Labor (Mr*. 
Daley) in an answer I placed before the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Daley) earlier in this Session, w'e think the staff is an 
excellent one, but I must repeat there is not enough of them, 
and we have evidence to substantiate that. Perhaps, if we 
had more of these people, and the people of the new staff 
vi/ere made available to us at an earlier time, we would not 
get into a situation such as was referred to, an emergency 
situation, where the individuals in the Department actually 
put themselves out to help solve the problems, and v^'hen we 
have the people available, v^here these situations arise, 
we can get down to business, and arrive at some decision, 
before the matter becomes critical. 

Let me give you an example. I say the people 
on the staff there are overtaxed, and as the result many 
of these situations v;hich require the services, for instance, 
of the Conciliation staff, cannot be met immediately. 

I do not want to weary the House, but I have almost 
25 or 30 examples on file, and many more have been presented 



oil iilUx oil 



1^3 



to the hon. Minister of Labor (Mr. Daley), I believe. 

I just want to shovi you by vmy of example v;hat 

the situation can be. '.'ore is what I consider an excellent 

the 
case. This is the case where the Department has given us/best 

service it can, and this is v;hat happened. I will submit 
the name of the company and the Union involved, if the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Daley) wishes, but this is where the Union 
began negotiations on August 24th, 1950. By December they 
still had not reached a settlement with the company. In 
December, the company and the Union mutually agreed to apply ■ 
for conciliation assistance, A conciliation officer was 
applied for, and he came in on December 6th. No agreement was 
reached, and they both agreed to apply for a Board, and applica- 
tion was made, and the company's nominee and the Union's nominee 
were appointed on the 12th of February. From December to 
February, that is pretty good service. \/ithin tv/o months 
from the time the conciliation officer came in, but six 
months after they began to negotiate. 

MR. DALIiJY: You cannot blame us for the delay in 
the negotiations? 

MR. F3LL: No, but I think it is a good case to show 
what good service we can get at times from the Department, 
and they have given us the best service they possibly can. 

On December 6th, the Conciliation officer came in. 
No settlement was effected, and the Conciliation officer 
suggested we make application for a Board, and he made a re- 
commendation to the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley). The hon. 
Minister (Mrc Daley), in turn, agrocd to appoint a Chcirmen. 
On February 19th, " both parties agreed 



aytti Mar ah 



EE-4 

to a Board, The hon. Minister (Mr* Daley) appointed 
the Chairman on the 26th of February. The first meeting 
was held on March 9th; the second meeting was held on March 
21st, and at this particular moment, a report still has not 
been written, but the point I want to make is this is a good 
case to indicato hew fast the situation can movo, v^hen you 
have people available immediately. December, January, February, 
and into March, so we should have a report any time now, "'7e 
think that is a record. We think in the labor movement this 
is almost a record for getting conciliation set up, and perhaps 
getting a report. Now, contract that situation with this one. 
Here is a situation where the Union involved was not able to 
get service as rapidly as they would have liked. Here is 
a case where the Union and company began negotiationg in 
July of last year. They negotiated from July to October; 
no settlement, A Conciliation officer was applied for, 

and came in, in October, and they .rily; reached a settlement 
in February. There are July, August, September, October, 
November, December, January and February; seven months 
before they got a settlement. 

Mi^. DALEY: That was a Board, 

MR. FIjLL: Yes, and add on to that the 
period of time the negotiations were being carried on, and 
you have extended the period almost to nine months. 

M-t. DALEY: /hen I appoint /Chairmen, they are ^jone 
away from me. 

MR. FELL: All right, but you must still have some- 
thing to say about the Board which you appoint. You must 
have some authority to say that a report should be received, 
and a settlement made faster than that. I want to get this 
point across, that it takes so long to get a settlement, 



29 th Marcli 



EE-5 

that the relationship between the employer and the collective 
bargaining unit worsens. The real problem which seems to be 
coming forward is this; after perhaps going nine months, a 
settlement is reached, but there is no retroactivity in the 
settlement, or if there is any, it is only retroactive for 
a short period of time. Let us see how unjust this is. 
When the Union submitted its request to the company in the 
first place, maybe nine months ago, their demands were based 
on the economic problem at that time, the cost of living, and 
things like that, and the wages which were going in that 
particular industry at that time. All these things were taken 
into consideration, when the Union drafted its proposals to 
the company. Nine months later, what happened? The cost of 
living had risen sky high, and the original demands of the 
Union were completely worthless. Even if they got what they 
asked for, it would be inadequate, yet they were forced to 
conciliation and subject to a decision based on demands made 
nine months previously, and I have here an extract from a 
Memorandum of proposals by the Ontario Federation of Labour, 
where they point out: 

" Another matter which has caused concern 
among our Federation affiliates is the delay 
in processing conciliation matters. Our 
convention went on record saying that instead 
of waiting 50 days before you can apply for 
conciliation, a party should be able to apply 
after 15 days where, in the opinion of the 
party, no agreement can be reached without 
conciliation* 



EE-6 

Last year the Ontario Federation of 
Labour suggested, as an alternative to the 
present expensive conciliation board set up, 
that the final step in conciliation proceed- 
ings be the conciliation officer. He shall 
be clothed with the authority to hear the 
case, and if possible, effect a settlement, 
and failing that, to make a conciliation 
report of what he considers fair and equit- 
able. That report would carry the same weight 
as a conciliation board report. In this way 
conciliation proceedings would be speeded up 
tremendously; the question of neutral chair- 
men would be solved, and your conciliation 
officers would perform a useful function 
rather than as they are now — a mere cog 
in the process." 
Mr, Chairman, I submit that in many cases that is 
precisely what the purpose of the conciliation man has been, 
to cut another piece of red tape out of the way. He comes in, 
and only has a limited period of time, and has to go to ano- 
ther place the next day, or the same day, perhaps, and 
maybe has to go to a place some fifty, or sixty, or a hundred 
miles away. He calls on the company, and talks to them, 
says "T/Vhere do you stand? How far are you prepared to go", 
and then he talks to the Union, and says "How far are you 
prepared to come down". If it is apparent neither party 
will agree to a settlement, then he recommends a Conciliation 
Board. He simply puts on his hat and leaves. 

We would like to have the Conciliation officer stay 
on the job, and not have to run around the country to 



29th March 



EE-7 



another case the same day. May I make this sijggestion 

to the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley)? I want the 1;; -n. Minister 

{Mr# Daley), first of all to get one point clear, that 

it is still the opinion of the Canadian Congress of Labour, 

The Federation of Labour, and I believe the A.F. of L. Group 

that the staff is not large enough. 



(TAKE "FF** FOLLOWS) 



March 29th, 1951 



FF - 1 

V/e think that there Is a shortage of staff; and the 
rLeed is now, not in the future. The need will grow, 
"i/ife have a need right now that should be filled. 

Let me propose this to the Minister and he 
may say, "Suppose I enlarge my conciliations now, by 
putting on another ten or fifteen men. Are you 
suggesting that those men are going to be completely 
occupied from one end of the year to the other?" No, 
I do not, because I believe it is a fact that there are 
period throughout the year when the present staff are not 
completely occupied, when men are available whom 
there is no situation to, meet. B ut, we all know, too 
that at certain periods of the year, of recent years, 
the services of the conciliation staff are required more 
than at any other time of the year, and cannot always 
be available at the precise tim^v;hen a settlement might 
fee arranged without too much difficulty. So in 
answer to that problem I would propose this to the 
Minister. I appreciate that the kind of men who make 
good conciliation officers are not easy to get. I do 
not think that necessary means that it is impossible to 
get suitable men. There are a good many men throughout 
this Province who would be available to the Minister if 
he went out to seek them. I say to him, put on a 
reasonable number in addition to the present staff. At 
times when the conciliation staff is usually over-taxed, 
these men will be available to go into a situation 
before it reaches the point where a strike is inevitable. 
Thus, you would get your problem straightened out vi/ithout 
eight or nine months delay. Vi/hen the period comes around 



FF - 2 

that there is not much conciliation work to be done, 
these men, I suggest, would he quite capable of per- 
forming duties as factory inspectors. At least 
many of them would. At the present time, with 
probably only forty inspectors to inspect about 40,000 
plants in this Province, it is obvious that these 
inspectors are over-taxed. Let us employ conciliation 
officers when they are not otherwise busy on factory 
inspection or other work on behalf of the department. 
Then, when, in the cycle of events, the situation again 
arises that conciliation officers are needed, you have 
them on your staff and you do not have to go looking 
for them; they are merely transferred to the concil- 
iation branch. I make that as a recommendation. 

Further, I would endorse the recommendation 
of the Ontario Federation of Labour that the concilia- 
tion officer be made "the final word". I would go 
even further. If the Minister is not prepared to 
accept the conciliation officer's recommendation as 
final, let there be some set-up of this kind. The 
conciliation officer could become the last word to a 
point; in other words, if lab our- management has not 
been able to reach an agreement, and makes application, 
and get a conciliation officer, and he comes in and tries 
to effect a settlement, and at the end of his investi- 
gation, says, "This is what I recommend; this is what 
you employers should give the Union, and this is what 
the U nion should accept", if there is still disagree- 
ment, the Union should be allowed to take a strike vote. 

But if the Company still feels that 



J 



March 29th, 1951. 



FF - 3 

more could he done, they could appeal to a conciliation 
hoard. I helieve that is a course which would 
eliminate the problem. But note what is happening. 
I aot in agreement with people who make such 
irresponsible statements as that which I read in the 
Press, that, if this situation follows, the Labour 
Leaders are no longer responsible for the action of 
their membership. That is a lot of nonsense. Let 
these critics go in a factory and work under the con- 
itions that our people are working under, economically. 
Let them listen to the arguments our people put up to 
their representatives on the .subject of cost of living 
in comparison with take-home pay. Let these "dough- 
heads" go in and find out what the situation is. You 
cannot push superior nonsense of that kind down the 
throats of the workers to-day. They are human beings -■ 
with a iBsic education and some knowledge of the funda- 
mental ethics which affect their situation. So it is 
nonsense to throw out these snide remarks. about what 
Labour Leaders are saying. 

HON. MR. FROST: Ape you referring by those 
remarks to the Department of Labour? 

MR. FELL: No, I did not say the Department of 
Labour made this remark. That was from an editorial a 
few days ago in one of our newspapers. 

Iffi. FROST: Have we not got all this unloaded 
by now, so we can get ahead? 

MR. FELL: No; and I disagree with what the 
Prime Minister said on three different occasions, that 
there was nothing more to be said about labour, I have 



IF - 4 



sat here, through this time, keeping my mouth shut. 

Iffi. FROST: Don't tell me I 

MR. lEOlfiAS:/ The door is always open to tell 
him. 

Iffi. FELL.: Thewarkor in the factory, with the 
problems he has got to face to-day, cannot but be affected 
by the psychological reaction of such things as his wages 
not being in line with his cost of living, and when he 
comes to a point where he cannoy a settlement with his 
employer through collective bargaining, he says, what 
is the next step? The next step is conciliation* 
l/'i/hat happens there? U nder the Act, the Company has 
fifty days for negotiation, even if they do not do any- 
thing. I say that both the Union and the Company know 
within fourteen days after they start to negotiate 
whether they are going to reach a settlement. So you 
start conciliation, and under the Act the Company has the 
right to hold you to certain steps, 

which makes it possible for the sort of thing that I have 
brought to the attention of the Minister a short time ago,- 
these long drawn out delays in arriving at a settlement. 
So the worker cannot be blamed if he says: "Do you mean 
to tell me I have got to wait nine months to get a settle- 
ment?" Look at the figures to-day of the cost of living 
index, which appears in the paper almost every night; 
turn to the financial page, and you have got your price 
index, which indicates how the cost of living is jumping. 
Nine months hence, when you get your settlement on a 
demand made to-day, or five or cix weeks ago, even if you 
obtain the maximum demanded, it will still fall short of 



w-r-ci- '-':tt- ■>" •■. 



FF - 5 



what the situation requires at that time. Can you 
blame the worker for saying, "No, Sir, I am not going 
to wait nine or ten months. I must have a settlement 
now." So if one finds a dislocation in production and 
in business, it must be appreciated that the worker, 
under the pressure he has to meet, has come to the con- 
clusion that there is no other way that it can be met. 
To say that the workers are completely unreasonable and 
that the bosses are a bunch of grand fellows is not, I 
submit, reasonable. Miat do you think of the employer 
who, when the worker suggests, "Alright, tie the whole 
wage question to the cost of living.", says "No, it is 
going to cost me too much money" > Can you blame the 
employees for wanting to close him up? For that is 
the only language he seems to understand. There Is a 
solution, and it is the solution we have proposed. 
Give the conciliation officer the authority to do as 
was suggested by ghe Labour groups. Give him the 
authority to stay in there. Give him first of all, 
enough staff to ha-ys a man stay in there and say, 
"This is what I recommend"; and then, if it is going 
to be an economic fight, let it be an economic fight, 
and if there is to be a Board of Appeal, let it iae a 
conciliation board . to which either party 

can appeal. Do not take away the right of Labour to 
protect itself .in the way we have suggested. 

Much has been said about what a "wonderful" 
Act we have. I do not mind saying that in many res- 
pects it is as fine a piece of legislation as can be 
found anywhere. But where we find loopholes, where 



March 29th, 1951. 



FF -6 

there is a situation which can be corrected, not merely 
by changing legislation but by a change of policies which 
are, in effedt, Labour Department and in the concilia- 
tion branch — something that can be done without any 
difficulty at all — I think that we at this legislature 
would be remiss and the Minister of Labour will be 
remiss if he does not seize the opportunity to do it . 

That is a point I want to make clear, because, 
as the Minister knows, I personally was involved last 
year in a situation — or situations -- where this 
problem had to be faced. It just is not a question 
of going up to the working man and saying, "Look, 
Brother, it is too bad; I feel sorry for you; every- 
thing you say is right, but ycu mtxst-iitiidfe^byl.this 
legislation. '.% know that the Company is utilizing 
it to stall you off, so that when you get a settlement, 
nine months hence, it is only going to be about half what 
you need." The award is not always retroactive to the 
day negotiations began; in most cases, it is only as 
of the date vi/hen conciliation is applied for or granted 
by the Ministry of Labour, so the man is very likely 
losing the difference in his wages for a period of 

anywhere from five to eight months. 

with 
I would close / the remark that the Mnister 

should not consider this as a question of legislation 

on which a back jfecnfcher is talking to a cabinet minister, 

or vice versa. I feel that what I say is reasonable, 

and I believe that the Minister of Labour is a man big 

enough to appreciate that. If what he says is true — 

and I believe it is true -- that he came out of the 



Fr - 7 



factory himself, he must realise what I have said about 
the attitude of the workers to-day — which you are not 
going to change with legislation -- is a fact. Realising 
and accepting that it is a fact, I am sure he is going to 
make some of the changes that have been suggested. 

IHR. DALEY: I would like to reply just briefly. 
I do not doubt for a moment that the hon. member is 
sincere, that he believes what he says, and is convinced 
that what he suggests would be an improvement. The 
difference between us is that I do not agree with him. 
In the first place, our conciliation services haire, as 
the results I outlined earlier in my address prove, 
produced wonderful results. In a whole year, in this 
great industrial Province, with hundreds of applications 
foi^cconciliation, there have been only about five strikes. 

I would like to say that we never draw a con- 
ciliator off one job until he is finished. li/hen he 
leaves a dispute, he is through. He has decided "I 
can't settle this thing". He comes to me and says 
"I can't do any more in there now; you will have to 
appoint a Board." .fell, to appoint a Board is ndt so 
■ easy and sometimes cannot be accomplished just 
as quickly as vje would like. Sometimes it is very 
difficult to find a chairman. Especially in certain 
seasons of the year, judges are all tied up, or are 
going on their holidays; and sometimes, we will call 
one morning as many as half a dozen to try to coax one 
of them to take these jobs. The thing is to be real- 
istic. The basic principle of this Act under v\;hich we 
operate, is that there will be, first, conciliation; 



March 29th, 1951. 



FF - 8 



then, a period during which a Board can be appointed; 
a representative of the indmstry, of the employees, 
and an independent and impartial chairmem appointed 
by the Minister, if the parties cannot agree on one. • 
There are delays, and those delays occur for many 
reasons. I could cite you as many cases in which the 
delay has been caused by the Union representative, as 
I could those caused by the employer. I have had it 
happen that the Union representative said, "Loo^, I 
am going to be on my holidays for the next thr^e weeks, 
I won't be able to meet them until after that." Then, 
maybe, when this fellow gets back, the Judge cannot 
attend. So that to get a Board appointed in the firfet 
place and then find a time v;hen they can meet, sometimes 
causes considerable delay. In the case of some delays — 
not all -- the Unions are not without some responsibility. 
But I think you have picked out about the worst case you 
could find in a great many when you mention a delay of 
nine months. As I see it, the thing is that during all 
this time, the men are working, they are not on the street, 
they are getting a pay check every Saturday night, and 
if and when the time comes that the dispute can be 
settled, they have not lost a thing. But if we make 
it ever so easy, appoint a conciliation officer, and the 
adjuster goes in and says, "I am sorry, I can't do any- 
thing for you people, but you have the right to go on 
strike within a few days", I am afraid we would have ten 
times the strikes v.;e have now; the people wouM suffer; 
no-one would gain. Once a plant closes down, everybody 
starts to lose, and the biggest losers are probably the 



March S9th, 1951. 



FF - 9 

workers. That is what we try to avoid. That is what 
we feel our obligation is; and sometimes]^: if there is 
a little too long delay, I just feel sorry about the 
delay, but I feel very glad that the men continue at 
work, and eventually we can settle a dispute and in 
most cases — my friend says, in few cases, but I say, 
in most cases — there is a retroactive feature which 
takes care of the time occupied in negotiations. 

IKR. FELL: That is not quite true. 

IHR. DALEY: So I would be very hesitant to 
change a system that does work. 

MR. FELL: It keeps men at work, but it does 
not make a legitimate adjustment in wages considering 
the delay that has taken place. If the Minister's aim 
is simply to keep men at work, he is succeeding, but if 
the aim of the Department of Labour is to see that 
the workers get justice and a reasonable settlement in 
this situation, he has got to go further. Vi/here does 
he find justice in saying, "Alright; we kept them at 
work; they should be satisfied; . they are getting their 
wages which they complained were unsatisfactory in the 
first place." 

MR. DALEY: I am not saying that. I say they 
are working. 

MR. FELL: They are getting the wages which 
are unsatisfactory. They apply for more. You say it 
is reasonable that, when the coneiliation board's 
decision comes down, it should be based entirely on 
their original demand, which was made long ago, at a 
time when a settlement of the dispute on that basis 
might have been reasonable, but now is completely un- 



Maroh £9tli, 1951- 



FF - 10 

reasonable. If the purpose of the Department of 
Labour is to keep men at work, I think :^he Minister 
will succeed with the Aot he has. But if the 
purpose of the Department is to see that justice is 
done, that the employees problems are recognized — 
and don't forget it is the employers who have got the 
apples and not the employees -- and the employees 
shall get a reasonable adjustment and just treatment, 
then it has got to make other changes which are not 
now being made. All I can gather from the Minister's 
remarks is that the primary object is to keep the men 
at work under any circumstances, and no settlement is 
to be made on anything but their original demands. 



(TAKE CG FOLLOViE) 



March 29, 1951 
GG-1 

M. DALEY: I didn't say anything about the original 
denand. 

m. FELL: That is the only thing I can make out of 
your remarks. 

MR. J. B. SALSBERG: Mr. Chairman, I would like to 
make a few brief remarks, which/can be justified on the basis 
of the Vote before us, leaving the details to later Votes which 

will come up. Before making the brief remarks, however, 
I v/ant to plead v;ith the hon. Minister (Fir. Daley) to ac-j 
cept these remarks aS constructive criticism^ that merits 
serious consideration, and not to conclude that they are 
directed at him personally or at anyone in his Department. 

The hon. Minister (Fir. Daley) in his introduction 
said, I think very correctly, that the Province of Ontario 
has undergone a profound change in recent times, that it has 
become a great industrial province and it is no longer 
chiefly an agricultural province. That is something that I 
fear this government has not fully grasped as yet. I think 
that while the industrial advances have been collosal, and 
we are now in an atomic age and in a period of jet planes, 
there is a hang-over of the "horse- and-buggy" days insofar 
as the Labour Department and the thinking of the government 
on labour problems. It could be proven by many instances. 
The best, perhaps, is the nature of the so-called criticism 
that comes from labour members of the House in considering 
the Estimates annually, and I am glad that the hon. Premier 

Q 4- 1 o Q c{ "h 

(Mr. Frost) is here, and I know he will lister/with one ear, 
and I think he can make a contribution towards the improvement 
that is long overdue. 

'.vhat is the essence of the criticism? It is not that 



March 29, 1951 
GG-2 

the Department spends too much money; it is not even that 

the Department is anti-labour in its operations. It is 

chiefly that the Department does not function in a manner 

that the industrial changes cf the province call for. 

That is the main criticism. V7e ask, year after year, that 

you spend more money, that you modernize the Department, 

that you equip your Department with the kind of machinery 

that will render the service to the working people of 

this province they have a right to expect. It is 

true that from time tc time there are profound differences 

cf opinion between the government and opposition groups on 

labour legislation. That is to be 

expected, and is natural because the government, after 

all, represents a certain party, the Conservative Party; 

labour groups represent the labour point of view. But 

leaving aside for the moment tho sharp differences v/hlch 

arise in instances cf special legislation, the main 

criticism is that tho Department is not advancing fast 

enough, is not modernized, is not stream-lined and does 

not do a lot of things that it should do. 

I"E. DALEY: l/ell, the fact is that has been 

proven untrue. 

m. SALSBERG: I will come tc that. It is even 

evidenced by the attendance here tonight. I would like 

to see the government benches filled v/hen the hon. Minister 

of Labour (I^Ir. Daley) speaks on Estimates. I would like 

every hon. member supporting the government to feel that 

this is an important department, not just a secondary one, 

commenced speaking, 
Until a minute ago, before I , there was a 

"baker's dozen"; now, of course, that I have started, a 

number of hon. members came in, and I welcome them. 



March 29, 1951 
GG-3 

SOJVIE hon. M3KB;:RS: Hear, hear. 

AN hon. KSI'BER: We are all here. 

MR. SALSBSRG: Particularly my loyal supporters 
from the government side that sit so close to me. 

AN hon. TiSriBER: Well, we are leaving shortly. 

m. SALSBERG: I would like to see the hon. 
Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) 

sitting closer to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), 
because I think ' the functions he and 
his Department perform, are of such a nature 
that he should be among the senio:^^ ministers in the 
cabinet. 

Let us take another example or two to illustrate 
what I mean. The hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) complained 
that he has not the number of inspectors he requires, 
both for factory inspection and for conciliation services. 
The fact is that the Department does not pay a factory 
inspector enough to induce a skilled mechanic to leave 
his job and accept a ,rrovernment jol:; In many instances. 
I think th_it is true. The hon. Minister {l-lr. Daley) 
stated at a meeting of the Labour Committee this year -- 
we were all glad to get together on that occasion -- that 
he could not get steamfitters qualified to serve as boiler 
inspectors. 

m. DALEY: I said it was difficult. 

MR. SALSBERG: The fact is that a good steamfitter,who is 
a union man, v/orking under a union contract, will earn 
as much, if not more, at his trade than he v/ill receive if he 
becomes an inspector, and naturally you will have difficulties 
in getting good inspectors. What does it show? That the 



March 29, 1951 
GG-4 
Department does not - moot the financial and 
other requirements to attract the people it requires. 
And I would like to see the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) fight 
for money, fight for what he needs in the way of 

M. DALEY: I never had to. 

MR. SALSBERG: equipment. 

m. DALEY: I get all the money I want. 

M. SALSBERG: Let me take another illustration. 

The hon. Minister (Mr. Daley), introduced 

a Bill last year v;hich I v.ill not sa^'' is the worst bill, 

but I certainly will net say it is the best. It 

is natural for the hon. Minister of Labour (Tor. Daley) and 

the government to praise their wares. Of course it is only 

natural for them to say that their legislation is the best. 

But in the drafting of the Bill last year, there was an 

outcropping on every side of the kind of thinking that keeps 

the Department in the position that it is in. For instance, 

which 
that fantastic proposal last year^ the government 

withdrev; after a storm of protest that rose from the ranks 

of labour, to deny the services of the Department to an 

international union in case of a so-called "wildcat" strike 

cf any of its units. It is fantastic to come forv;ard with 

such legislation. 

MR. DALEY: We just "flew a kite" on that. 

m. SALSBERG: 4ell, it was more than a kite. The 
hon. Mnister (Mr. Daley) says he" flew a kite'^. That • 
wasn't a kite, Mr. Minister (Ilr. Daley), that was a bomb 
full of explosives that caused people to scurry before the 
fuse even reached the end. How could a department that is 
stream-lined, that is modern, that is aware that it is 
functioning in 1950 and not in 1B67 come forward with 



. r^arch 29, 1951 
GG-5 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Chair- 
man, I \/ould just like to say to my hon. friend (Mr. 
Salsberg) that I noticed the operation in v;hich vi/o 
were all interestec^ the other day, the matter of the 
milkmen. Everybody else got their hands and feet and 
everything else into that picture, and bocoiaa exhauslped, 
tired out and frazzled. There were pictures in the paper show- 
ing , the state of exhaustion of both employees and 
employers It was dreadful. The 

men were out on strike and everything went, bad — until 
our poor, abused Department of Labour got into it and 
settled it in a matter of a few hours. 

S0I-1E hon. r.'IEHBERS: Hear, hear. 

MR. FROST: New, can we not get this Estimate 
passed, and stop unloading conversation? 

SOME hon. MEfffiERS: Hear, hear. 

MR. FROST: If you want an example of 

the efficiency of this Departm.ent, just soo v.'hat v^as done 
last v;oek. And who settled it? The hon. 

Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) and his Chief Conciliation 
Officer, Louis Fine, when everybody else tried their hands 
at it and made a mess of it. 

Now, why not call it a day and put these Estimates 
through? 

MR. SALSBERG: Mr. Chairman, I .-ssure the hon. 
Premier (Mr. Frost) he will get the Estimates through to- 
nigh t^ if I know v;hat is what. 

SOME hon. MSFIBERS: Oh, oh. 

MR. FROST: I would say so. 



f 



March 29, 1951 
GG-6 



MR. SALSBERG: I also suggest to him that he need 
not seek at this moment/ credit for the settlement of that 
strike. 

MR. FROST: I do not know who else you would give 
it to. 

MR. SALSBERG: He got more credit than he ex- 
pected, from the v;ay the ne\:spapers reported it, . And 
I might say to the hon. Premier (lor. Frost) that, so far, I 
am the third hon. member to speak on these Estimates and 
no one has hurled any bricks, in fact I thought there 
were altogether too many bouquets for the good of the 
Department. Is that not right? So the hon. Premier (Mr. 
Forst) can sit there very peacefully and not worry. They 
are getting x-zhat credit they deserve, but it is proper and 
necessary to emphasize the weaknesses which we feel should 
be improved. 

I mentioned one incident/ last year. There was 
another incident last year in the Bill; 

proposal that members of negotiating committees in plants 
must consist of certain people and no others. That 
is outlandish in 1950, and the Department should wake up 
and realize that you cannot bring in such 
legislative proposals, today. 

Let me illustrate the point by . another ex- 
perience V/e hav*,to my knowledge, at least since I camo 

here, in 1944, been demanding of the govern- 
ment that it issue materials that will help the labour move- 
ment and that will provide the province as a whole with the 
essential facts, and knowledge of the labour situation. 
It is almost trite to say that people in this province can 



March 29, 1951 



GG-7 



get more materials and more knowledge on the growing of 

and on 
sugar beets, the care of sheep,/ the problems of hog 

raising, than ®^can on labour problems. I fully agree 
v/ith what the Department of Agriculture is doing, and as 
an ■ member of this House I am often very proud to re- 
ceive the materials that Department issues on junior 
farmers, crops, fruit and so on It is excellent. 
But if any member of a trade union or any person in the 
province or anyone from outside of the province were to 
ask me for materials on the labour situation in Ontario, 
I ViTOuld have nothing to offer him, 

M. DaLEY: You send thorn to mG« 

MR. SALSBERG: ^jxcept what is contained in 

Federal publications, or the 

m. DALEY: Sbnd thcrd to me, I will coll thorn. 

M. SALSBERG: Tho. hon. Minister (Tr. Daley) 
says: "Send them to me, and I will give them information." 
I do not think it should be necessary. For instance, I 
should like to know as an member of this House, 
periodicall3{ how you are advancing in your work that you 
spoke of this evening on the apprenticeship. I think that 
is a very important field of work, and if the Department 
of Agriculture properly issues material on junior farming, 
vrhy can you not issue bulletins three or four times 
a 3'-ear on the apprenticeship work, experiences, the number 
of graduates, the problems they have when they graduate, 
how they fit into industry, and so on? 



(Take HH follows) 



Mar, 29 



HH-1 



That is true of further phases, the rate of industrial 
accidents indicates how to reduce them, the work of 
your inspectors to curtail the number of accidents, 
what is the employment picture in the province at 
given times? I think those are certainly just demands 
to make of the Department, and the Department has not 
yet accepted its responsibilities, because-, I say, 
it does not yet function, does not appreciate its role 
at the present time, and also because its thinking 
is conditioned by the Conservative policy which is 
reflected in the Government's own labour policies. 
The Government proposed last year that outlandish plan 
which was withdrawn to bar other than workers of given 
plants in negotiating in committees, and yet the 
Government took the same stand and gave a very bad 
example when they refused to meet with an outsider 
who was the elected spokesman of civil servants. I 
mentioned this earlier in t his Session, and I mention 
it now to illustrate again the point I am driving home, 
that this Government could have set an example to this 
country during the great railroad strike in coming to 
terms with the railroad r.nions and preventing a strike 

on the Northland Railroad which belongs to this 

was 
province. There nothing to stop this province from 

doing that. Thei o were outcries in the papers that 

certain points in the north were deprived of food, 

people were starving in Northern communities, people 

left their homes and roamed the highways, to get food. 

Yet our railroad could have operated if the Government 

had granted their modest demands, the demands of the 



Mar. 29 



HH-2 

railroad workers. 

Now then, I v;ill limit myself to these few 
remarks of a general character, merely to point out 
further the importance of basic change in the Depart- 
ment, both in tViinking and in operation, I want to 
quite . \-- what the two main labour groups 

said only a few weeks ago to this government. I do 
that in order to fortify my appeal to the Government 
for necessary changes, so that no one will say that I 
as a member of a certain party suggests these 
things. The Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley), /\ras there 
with the representatives of the a. F. of L. unions 
of this province, and I am now quoting: 

"The Federation feels, however, that the Act 
must have further amendments before it can be 
truly described as an equitable piece of legis- 
lation which fully recognizes the workers' 
position at the labour-management bargaining 
table. The new Act, in places, tends to 
emphasize an assumption that it nhould be fairly 
difficult to organize a bona fide trade union, 
but, on the other hand, it should be relatively 
easy to take the bargaining rights away from a 
trade union." 
I suggest to the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) those are 
strong words, and stronger words were stated by the 
spokesman for the C.C.L. unions when they sat, and I 
am quoting now from their memorandum to the Government, 
they said the following: 

"Failing some sensible approach of this kind, 



HH-3 

the legislation as it now stands simply 
encourages the lapsing of contracts. V'e 
must remind you that we have repeatedly 
warned the Government of the growing resent- 
ment of the workers over Labour Legislation 
of this kind. If this development continues, 
labour leaders will no longer be responsible 
for the actions of their people." 
Now, Mr, Chairman, I think those two statements 
by those spokesmen of the major trade unions in the 

province should be taken seriously by the Government and 

., ,. . to them. 
consideration given They should try to show in the 

work and in* the amendments that are necessary to the 

labour Relations Act and other labour legislation, 

that they are really trying to meet the minimum 

of requirements of labour in this great industrial 

province. The province is now making further headway 

in the direction of industrialization, the Department 

of Labour is a major department, a major branch of 

Government and — 

MR. FROST: V/e so regard it, 

MR. SALS BERG: And yet it may be understandable 
that you go around and praise your own work. You should 
also understand that much of the praise that you are 
heaping on yourselves is hardly warranted and there is 
much to be done, much is expected from organized labour, 
and from the people of this province. 

MR. J. L. EASTON (Wentworth) : Mr. Chaiman, I 
would like to agree with the previous speakers 

who have commended the Department for its efficiency, but 



Mar, 29 



HH-4 

I also agree with them when they say your Department is 
inadequate to meet the demands that are thrust upon 
it. Now, I would like to cite a case from another 
angle than has been expressed by the previous speaker. 
In May, 1950, Local 205 -ainters and ecorators of 
America, and Mastor FGintors In the city of Hamilton 
made an agreement, whiciy based an increase in wages of 
ten cents per hour and five cents an ^our conditional 
on the zone, the Hamilton zone being brought under the 
Industrial Standards Act. They applied, I believe, to 
the government, at that time to come under the regulations 
of the Industrial Standards Act in the Hamilton zone. 
One part of the agreement was if they did not receive 
• approval for publication in the Ontario Gazette 
in six months they would get the five cents 
additional raise. Ye6, I see on March 17, 195l> 
exactly nine months after, . ' 

regulation is ■ • mad^ is nine months after the 
application. Of course, you can see during that time 
that the painters and decorators have suffered some 
financial loss, and I am wondering if there is not some 
explanation for it. I would like to tell you why we 
are interested in the city of Ham.ilton in'- getting 
under these industrial standard regulations. In certain 
hotels and industries in the city of Hamilton, they are 
employing displaced persons at less than the prevailing 
rates, and it is the job of the same trade union move- 
ment to try to organize these workmen for their own 
protection. However, you realize how difficult it is 
to point out to these people that they should be earning 



Mar . 29 



HH-5 



far .better wages, more in relation to 
what their Canadian brothers are getting. I am anxious 
to hear why there is such delay in making an applica- 
tion to come under regulations and then nine months 
after we find that it is made. Could the Hon. Minister 
(Mr. Daley) explain the delay on that? 

MR. DALEY: ;/ell, of course, I would not accept 
any responsibility for delays coming under industrial 
standards. The process is that if any trade or any 
group in any particular zone wish to come under the 
Industrial Standards Act, they make application to 
me for a conference. V/e will call a conference 
between the representatives of the employers and the 
employees and with some talking with our people, they 
may come to an agreement as to what the wage rate and 
certain conditions of employment will be. If they 
agree, it is simply a matter of passing an order- in- 
council bringing into effect the regulations. Of 
coiArse, regulations have to be drawn up and there is 
some legal work to do, but nine months is simply out 
of the question. I do not know the particular case, 

at least, I just do not recall it, but it must have 

, employer. 

been delay on the part of the We did not 

delay it, VJe have men who will go there the 

minute they want a conference. We will be there. 

We are holding conferences all over the province, 

and certainly there is no delay on our part, it must 

have been the .employers themseLves. 

MR. C. C. CaLDER (London): Mr. Chairman, there is 

one point I would like to raise^ was raised by the 



HH-6 

hon. member for Dovercoiort (Mr. Park) in connection 
with the training of men over forty years of age. In the 
city of London my federal colleague went to work on 
this because he, like the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) 
recognizes its importance. He had extra staff added 
to the Unemployment Insurance office there ^whose job 
it was to do nothing except help those people over 
forty-five years of age. But, that is not going far 
enough. You want to help train people for those jobs 
as well as find new jobs. I would commend this to the 
Hon. Minister of Labour (Mr, Daley) and the Hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost), because there is no field of 
Dominion-Provincial co-operation that will bear better 
fruit than you. taking up your responsibilities at 
this end. 

MR. L. E. WISMER (Riverdale) : Mr, Chairman, I 
just have a couple of remarks to make, I might as well 
do it now and then we can pass these estimates. There 
has been criticism of the slowness with which we get 
certification, and I suggest to the Hon. Minister (Mr, 
Daley) perhaps something could be done to step up 
that operation. It would be in the interests of all, 
I think, if some certifications were not held up as long as 
they are, I know sometimes there is no application, still 
some long delays occur. I am not now criticizing the 
conciliation officers Many of the conciliation boards 
have proceeded for months; rather than make a long QgroQmeli;fc. 
I refer the Hon, Minister (Mr. Daley) to the legislation 
in the province of filberta, I do not know whether the 
Department has considered the Alberta legislation, but 



Mar. 29 



HH-7 

there is a provision in the law which, I think, would 
be worth considering, which, in essence is this: 
that the Board may proceed after so many days, and 
then if it is unanimous in its decision that it 
should proceed further, it can then in writing ask 
the Minister for permission. Now, 

I realize that creates a further ministerial respon- 
sibility, but it seems to ae, to have worked 
out very well in the province of Alberta. I am not 
holding that up as a model, but you have to 'proecod 
pace slowly in all these things, and where something 
works very well, I think it is worth considering. 

(Take II follows.) 



Mar. 29 



II-l 



I think I suggested this to the Hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) 
before, but there should be some way of making available 
the results of conciliation boards, I realize that 
requires a certain amount of stenographic and other 
assistance to get the work out. The Province of 
Alberta, I notice recently has published a sort of 

"fcliO SG 

review, o^ wno asked for certification, who secured certi- 
fication, those who did not get it, why they did not 
get it, who asked for conciliation officers, how many 
settlements were achieved, how many conciliation boards 
there were, what was effected, and what sort of settle- 
ments were achieved. At leaslr it was a step in the 
direction of making public the results of these acti- 
vities. I do not suggest that v/as a perfect thing, 
in itself, but as far as I know, it was the first time 

any province has made any information of that kind public, 

regarding 

that sort of activity under a Labour Relations Act, 

I commend that. 

Gradually, perhaps, we could get to the point 
where the results of conciliation boards could be made 
available for the guidance of new conciliation boards, 
unions and employers in these matters. After all, I 
presume that we can all agree we are in at least a 
system of industrial relations which is not likely to 
pass, and we had better know what has gone before in 
order to guide us in our present circumstances, and in 
our future activities. 

While I am on my feet, I may say I have only one 
other matter with which I want to deal. We passed a 



II-2 

Labour. Relations Act last year. V/hether v/e agree that 
is a good or a bad act is not very important at this 
stage; we are testing it; but, from my observation, it 
is not satisfactory for the building trades. That is 
a very special case because it is not what may be con- • 
sidered a continuous employment, and at the same time 
it could not be considered in the normal sense of the 
word a seasonal employment — in other words, you go 
to work for an employer v^ile he has a job, and even 
in the midst of the summer season, leave his employment 
and go into the employment of another employer alto- 
gether. A grievance which may exist with a former 
employer may, under the present legislation, be not 
settled v*hen the worker leaves his employment and 
proceeds to gain employment v/ith another employer, 

I suggest to the Hon. Minister (Mr, Daley) that 
he has had ■ various applications and representations 
from the building trade unions. He knows my relation 
with those imions. I am suggesting to him that it is 
worthy of consideration by the Department to draw up 
not a nev/ Act, but that a special section be devised 
and placed in the Laboior Relations Act to cover this 
very special group of workers — and a large group 
of workers — a group which has its own special problems 
and v\^ich is very necessary in the economy of Ontario — 
the building trades workers — in consultation with the 
industry, which is a very well organized industry, and 
with the unions in industry which are also very well 
organized, I think it would assist 

the industry, both the employer and the employee, and I 



w 



Mar. 29 



II-3 

think it would assist the Labour Relations Board and 
the Department of Labour to provide for some special 
considerations, arrangements, and procedures for that 
group of important people in our economy, 

MR, DALEY: I know that problem very well. It 
is a very difficult thing to handle. The men are 
moving and just about to become organized when they 
are gone. The speed of getting certification is a 
problem* They are booked ahead now. until May some 
time. We anticipate that we will st-; the board up 

and that probably some kind of meeting each month will 

are 
be enough. The developments just rolling up. I 

think we are doing the best we can. I have not heard 
too many complaints. Occasionally there is one which 
backfires a bit. In general, I think it is going very 
well, I think we have a pretty competent board. 

With respect to the publications, I presume 
that you know we are issuing now a Press release on 
relief. We hope to enlarge/ and make it more interest- 
ing. It is a new venture, t/e started it a couple of 
months ago. Actually, we have nothing to hide; every- 
thing which comes in is available, I decided we would 
give the Press a statement of relief. I believe the 
papers during the Session have so much other 
Government business, that they cannot devote too much 
space to this kind of report. V/e hope as we go along 
to develop that into an interesting document which v/ould 
inform those interested with respect to what is going on. 



' ■': V 



Mar. 29 



. II-4 

MR. Ii/lSMEii: One more word in that respect. 
It is not from the standpoint of making press releases 
of which I speak, Mr, Minister (Mr. Daley); week 
after week I get requests in my office from unions 
— and we have about three thousand of them — asking 
"What happened in a conciliation between our own 
people before?" In other words, it is not the 
interesting angle, it is the straight reference with 
which we are concerned. They asked, "V/hat happened 
last year," or "What happened two months ago in a 
similar situation?" Of course, that, as you know, 
is not available . 

Votes 95 to 93 agreed to. 

On Vote 99. 

hit. J. B. SALSBERG: (St. Andrew) : Mr. Chairman, 
on Vote 99, I want to make an appea' to the government 
to reconsider its position taken a year ago, and to 
adopt a more favourable view to the appeal I am making 
again. 

A year ago, after the tragic experience of 
a fire in a factory building in my constituency which 
took the lives of nine men and women, I appealed to 
the government to set up a select committee of the 
House to study all of the existing regulations, and 
laws governing the protection of life and limb of 
workers from the hazards of fire. I did that in the 
form of a or resolution which I placed on the 
Order Paper. The resolution finally came before the 
House. I am sorry to say that the Government — and 
I think, partio'larly, the Hon. Minister of Labour 



II-5 

(Mr, Daley)— was disinclined to the suggestion, and the 
resolution was voted down. The Hon. Minister (Mr, 
Daley) stated at the time that the officials of the 
Department concerned with this problem "will, if 
necessary, obtain regulations and bring in new ones," 

At the opening of the Session I put a question 
on the Order Paper which read as follows: 

"(L) VJ'ere any new regulations adopted since 
March 1, 1950 by the Factory Inspection Branch 
of the Department of Labour with a view to 
reducing the hazards of fire in industrial 
and commercial establishments in Toronto? 

(2) If so, on what date were they made, and 
when did they become operative? 

(3) What are those regulations?" 

In due time, the Department provided the answer. The 
answer was: "No , No new regulations were adopted," 

MR. DALEY: That is right. 

MR. SALSBERG: i':r. Chairman, I do appeal to the 
Government to approach this problem, not from the point 
of view of people responsible for a department who are 
trying, perhaps naturally to defend it, but to view 
it from a broader viewpoint. I say that the regula- 
tions which are now in operation are terribly antiquated 
and unsuitable for present conditions. 

M. DaLEY: Did you ever read them? 

MR. SALSBERG: Yes, I have, I might say that at 
the inquest which was held in the city of Toronto, 
astonishing facts were brought out , , 
instance, no violation of any provincial/ city regulation 



Kar.29 



II-6 

or by-law, was committed by anyone in the building 
where the fire took place, and where nine people perished, 
that there is no regulation to prevent the placing of steel 
bars on windows, , It was quite within the 

law. It was quite within the law to have exits from 
the building as existed in that situation. There was 
nothing unlawful in the partitions which were erected 
in the building. 

I want to say again and again, Mr, Chairman, 

finding 
I am not fault with the Factory Inspections 

Act. I told the Hon, Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) 

privately, and I repeat it here, for the record, I did 

not know the people involved, who figured in the Press 

after that tragedy, I have nothing against any one of 

them individually. I do not seek to have anyone 

replaced by anyone else, but I do suggest to the 

government to heed the appeal made by the 

Chief Coroner who presided at that inquest, and to 

take into account the recommendations of the jury which 

sat at that inquest « 

Both the Coroner and the jury urged upon the 
governments concerned to change the present regulations 
and laws so as to prevent a recurrence of such tragedies 
in the future. 

The matter was brought to the attention of the 
City Council, Toronto, City Council decided it was a 
provincial matter and referred the entire 'matter. )i ■ ^ 
to the province. Nothing was done by either the city 
or the province. No new regulations were adopted, accor- 
ding to the answer to my question. The Department feels 



* 



Mar, 29 



II-7 



that the old regulations are sufficient. Yet, under 
the old regulations nine people perished in a fire. 

\Vhat I am suggesting to the Hon, Minister (Mr. 
Daley), to the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Frost) and to 
the Government and to all hon. members of this House, 
is that we permit a select committee of this House to 
be appointed to study the regulations, call witnesses, 
bring in experts from the Fire Marshal's o.c'fice, municipal 
representatives, inspectors of provincial and city 
departments concerned with this responsibility, study 
the existing regulations, and then make recommendations 
v/hich will provide greater safeguards than are now 
provided for the protection of life. It is not 
something which will call for the expenditure of money by 

the province. That is not it at all. If new 
regulations are found necessary, the owners of buildings, 

operators of factories and stores v-.'.i n .. • . 

appropriate 
will be given a chance at the • =• time to make 

alterations, if alterations be necessary. I suggest 

it is a reasonable proposal to make, and a reasonable 

step for the government to take. It will not cost 

the taxpayers any money. It may, of noccssity,',, call 

for the expenditure of some money by individuals who 

own - or operate businesses in buildings. 

That is nothing in comparison with the saving of lives, 

■s. 

We had another tragedy in Toronto, in a dwelling 
over a store, where the lives, I think, of three people 
were taken. That may come more directly under the 
city regulations than under the province, it is true, 
but I think the city would welcome an opportunity to 



appear before such a committee, make constructive 
proposals, and accept recommendations which may- 
come forward after those deliberations. 



(Take J J follows) 



89tii March, 1951 



JJ-1 



MR. SALSBERG: I said to the hon. Minister (Mr, 

Daley) cnly today — and I repeat it here again -- 

that from even a narrow political consideration there is 

every reason why the government should accede to that 

proposal. I said to the hon. Minister (Mr, Daley) — 

and I repeat tonight — the government can lose nothing 

politically by setting/ such a Committee, Oo the other 

hand, it can gain a great deal. If important regulations 

are adopted as the result of the deliberations of such 

a Committee the G-overnment will, of course, take all the 

credit which they deserve. If, on the other hand, the 

studies of such Committee should show that no radical 

changes are necessary, they will not be blamed as they 

are now justly blamed, for tragedies of that sort as a 
result of .which 

regulations , which people say — and/1 say — are not 

adequate. So there is no reason why the government 

nor the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) should resist 

the proposal. 

Mr. Chairman, I am so convinced of the necessity 

for such a Committee that I am re-vamping now, and am 

sending to the Clerk of the House, the resolution which 

was on the Order Paper last year, so that it may go again 

on the Order Paper, in the hope that the government will 

change its attitude, and will agree to the setting up of 

"uch a Select Committee, 

I conclude with an appeal to the hon. Minister 

of Labor (Mr. Daley )j please change your attitude towards 

this proposskL; please understand there is nothing v ■,' 

anybody's sleeve in this proposal. If there is a shadow 



£9tli March 



JJ-2 

of suspicion in the mind of the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley), 
or anyone else, that such a Committee will be utilized 
for political purposes against the government, then I 
assure the hon. Minister (Mr, Daley) publicly that I, 
for one, have no such desire, and no such design, nor 
has anybody else. Last year, when the question c§me up 
hundreds of workers in that section of the city where 
the tragedy took place signed a petition to this govern- 
ment pleading with them to set up such a Committee. 
They did not want to be caught in another tragic 
situation as befell some of their colleagues. 

I told the hon. Minister of Labor (Mr. Daley )that 
some years ago — 30 years or so -- there was a tragedy 
in New York known as the "Triangle fire", which took 
the lives of 30 girls in a garment factory, , It 
shocked this continent, and resulted in the re-vamping 
of shop, factory and office building regulations, and 
the conditions were improved. Surely we should not wait 
for such a tragedy to occur here. 

The hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) says he has con- 
fidence in his Department and his staff. I am not 
questioning his right to feel that way, nor am I question- 
ing any branch of his Department, but I do appeal to him 
to agree to set up such a Committee. The government will 
have its majority there; the regulations are not those 
passed by this government alone; they have accumulated 
all through the years, and if anything is wrong, 
it cannot necessarily be laid at the door of this govern- 
ment which is in pov/er today. It perhaps could be 'laid 
at the door of every government which preceded them, or 



i'i'^iii.'f^f:..- 



JJ-3 



it may be that it can be laid at the door of no govern- 
ment. It may be that the regulations are antiquated, 

I end with this appeal to the hen. Minister (Mr, 
Daley) to agree to setting up such a Committee, and giving 
us the opportunity of studying this question, and getting 
the advice and experience of all the people in his Depart- 
ment, so that we may present at the first opportunity 
recommendations which can be implemented in the form of 
new legislation, and new regulations, and a better integra- 
tion of the inspection work of the province and the city, 

such as the one which 
so that tragedies took place in Toronto 

a little over a year ago will not recur, 

MR. DAISY: Mr, Chairman, I have the regulations, 
pursuant to sub-section 5 of Section 58 of the Factory, 
Shop and Office Buildings Act, which we think constitute 
a pretty fair set of regulations, I am not trying to suggest 
that any regulations cannot be improved, but after that 
very disastrous fire occurred, with which we were so deeply 
concerned, and after a very careful examination, and meetings 
held with the Fire Marshall, the City Building Commissioner 
of Toronto, the Fire Chief, and the Joint Fire Prevention 
Bureau, and consultations, we have adopted a system, vyhich 
I do not think even regulations could take care of. 

This is something that requires the cooperation of all 
the people engaged in anything that has anything to do with 
the prevention of fire, and the removal of hazards. 



29th March 1951 



JJ-4 

We have the Fire Chief and his deputies — I 
think in Toronto there are 14 or 15; maybe more — and men 
under the Fire Marshal Act, who are ■ .. deputized, and 
it is their job to prevent fires. They are experts, and 
they have all the force of law behind them in insisting 
on conditions which are not correct being rectified, such 
as partitions, cutting escapes, and the building of fire 
escapes. These men, under the Fire Marshal Act, and appointed 
by the Fire Marshal under that Act, have all the authority 
to see that matters are corrected. V/e have an agreement 
worked out with them, and it is working out very satis- 
factorily, and if they issue an order to a certain individual 
to remove a partition or open a doorway, or do certain 
things to remove a fire hazard, they send us a copy of 
that report, and in turn our inspectors vi/ill do the same 
thing with them. We have a very nice arrangement; the 
purpose of our both knowing what is going on, is to avoid 
duplication, that is, one inspector coming in and Issuing 
an order contradictory to what a former inspector had 
issued. 

We are working in complete cooperation, v;ith 
these 14 or 15 deputized inspectors, who have plenty of 
men under them, and that is so in most cities where there 
are fire departments, and you have in my department some 
40 or 50 inspectors, The men engaged in f ireprevention and 
Inspection are specialists. My men are watching for fire 
hazards, noticing as they go through industry any possible 
fire hazard, particularly in the old buildings. The new 
buildings are taken care of, because certain regulations 
have to be lived up to in the erection of new buildings. 



29th March 



JJ--5 



but in some of tiiese old buildings, ■■ -h 

* .; which have been turned over from one business 
to another — 

MR, SAXSBERG: Pardon me; the tragedy I mentioned was 
in a nBW building, and every inspector of the province and 
city stated under oath that there was nothing wrong,with 
the buij^ing; .^ that there was no violation, and yet the 

Coroner and the jury said we must change the regulations, 

the 
if/ regulations permitted the impediment to question. That 

was a new building. 

MR. DALEY: It was a very small room. I am speaking 

from memory, but I think it was 30 feet by 30 feet — 

Ml^. SAL^ERG: A modern building. 

Mxl, DALEY: On-, .person, after the fire broke out, 
went right out, I am as sorry as you are at the loss of 
life — 

MR. SALSBERG: There were bars on the windows. 

MR. DALEY: V/e do not accept that. It might have 
easily have been two or three floors above the ground. 
There was a proper escape, and we can only assume they did 
not think the fire was serious, and they moved around to 
get their belongings, and the fire may have come up with 
a rush, and engulfed them. 

MR. SALSBERG: The fire vms at the door. One man 
went through the flames; the others were afraid. The windows 
were barred. 

MR. DALEY: It was only 15 feet. But, at any rate, 
we feel that we are getting the cooperation of the big 
cities. We have the same sort of co-operative work in Toronto, 
Hamilton, Kitchener, Gait, North York, Oshawa, and others, 



■no 



%. ,■■ r.T : 



J J- 6 

and we are working along the line of getting the co- 
operation of the people in these municipalities who are 
actually capable of doing that kind of work, and we te.il 
that we are making good progress. We have certainly tightened 
up in our factory inspection, in connection with fires, 

I feel the Committee I have named, and with whom we 
have had discussions, is composed certainly of the type of 
people who know something about prevention of fires, 

MR, SALSBERG? Would you at least, Mr, Minister 
(Mr, Daley) not say "no" tonight, but think about it. 

MR, DALEY: I will not say "no", because if I could 
get advice which would enable me to prevent one fire a year 
and save one life^ I would feel very, very happy. 

Vote 99 agreed to. 

On Vote 100: 

MR, J.L. DOV/LING (Hamilton East): On Vote 100, 
Mr, Chairman, " The Board of Examiners of Operating Engi- 
neers", We have a condition in the City of Hamilton which 
I will draw to the attention of the hon. Minister (Mr, 
Daley) and the Deputy Minister, concerning one of the largest 
steel companies in Canada, "Stelco^' where they have some 
eight or ten steam locomotives. The operators of these 
locomiotives require a certificate of qualifications. 
A certificate of qualifications wiiich these men require 
consists not only of regulations gove: ning the same, but 
they must also have experience of at least 
18 months, and their seniority in the plant, through the 
process of collective bargaining is established on the date 
of that certificate. 



29th March, 1951 



J J- 7 



Vife ran into a bit of a problem, add I believe 

the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) is aware of it in that this 

was 
particular plan attempting to dieselize their traction 

equipment in the yards and/tne different departments. 

There is nothing in the regulations concorning operating 

engineers which would require operators to agree .^ dueh a 

plan to secure a certificate. 



(TAKE "KK" FOLLOWS) 



KK-1 

In other words, the position of the present operator 
is suoh that their soniority, which is the only depart- 
ment in the plant which is not on a plant-wide basis of 
seniority, is so affected that they feel that the company 
could, — not that they will — abuse the privilege of placing 
inexperienced men on the dieselized locomotives, replacing 
the steam locomotives, without the proper certificate of 
qualification. 

I have been asked by the .. group involved 
to draw this to the Minister's atte^ition. I spoke to him 
personally about it^ sent notes across the floor; he told 
us he intended to bring the Act up to date next year. But 
Vi/hat is he going to do with the Commission between now and 
next year? Is it possible under the regulations to place 
a provision in the regulations that not only does this apply 
to the present system of steam locomotives, but includes 
Diesel locomotives as well? 

MR. DALEY: I know my hon. friend realizes that he 
drew this to my attention sometime during this Session, 
and I assured him that we would certainly give it conside- 
ration. I cannot, especially during a busy time of the 
Session, and the operation of my Department, make regulations 
just overnight, I cannot immediately bring out something, 
I assure him I will give it consideration. I realize the 
difficulty. The hon, member says himself that he does not 
think the company is going to penalize these people or 
do any of the things he suggests that they might do. 
As I have said, we are intending to re-vamp the Operating 
Engineers Act, V/e shall start on it almost at the end of this 
Session, It takes quite a while to develop these things. 



29th March 1951 



KK-2 

We will certainly give the questioi^^consideration, and if the 
meantime we can devel->p something by regulation I can assure 
him we will consider it. 

MR.DOV/LING: I have that assurance, 

MR. DALEY: You have it. 

MR, DOV/LING: I want to make it clear that there is 
no attempt on my part to say that the company is going to 
abuse this, I do not think they will. At the same 

time, there are two factors involved. These men should be 

qualified, and they should have the 18 monthf,* experience 

/they 
and training as did the first operators. I think that if 

it was provided that they had to, their certificate would 

be their deed of security, and therefore they would follow 

along the natural process. I have the assurance 

of the Minister that he will take this into consideration, 

and if he puts in a regulation, it v;ill at least correct 

that condition and provide some assurance against certain 

dangers, because there is a tremendous hazard in that 

particular plant because of the long milage into the different 

departments, that employers might be run over or perhaps^hit 

by some incompetent operator of a Diesel locomotive. 

MR, DALiilY: I have given the assurance. 

Vote No. 100 agreed to, 

"Vote No. 101 agreed to. 

Vote No. 102 agreed to. 

Vote No. 103 agreed to. 

Vote No. 104 agreed to, 

Hon. LESLI3 M, FROST (Prime Minister): '^^ 

On Vote No. 149 - Main Office, 



29th March 1951 

KIv-3 

ivIR. L. -i. V/I3IiJR(Rlverdale) : I am 
always ver^^ gentle v/ltli the :L-'rovincial Treasurer 
(Mr. i'rost). I just v>/oiider if the Provincial 
Treasurer might ejcplain what happened to a 
couple of :lills that passed last year, with 
regard to personal income tax. It does not seem 
to have been a lie, ITo special Session of 
the Le;^,lslature vras called to put them into 
effect. I wonder if the rrine Minister would 
explain to the Cor.aiiittee just what happened to 
those, 

Hon. LESLIE LI. KiOoT (Prime i.Iinister): 
They are still in the stage of negotiations, 

Mr, MSIViSR: Oh no, you vvould not say 
that; 

Vote No, 149 agreed to. 

Votes 150 - 154 inclusive agreed to, 

Hon. L. 1.1, FitOST ( Prime Minister ) : Mr, 
Chairman, I move the Committee rise and report 
progress. 

Motion agreed to» 

The House resumes, Mr. Speaker in the Chair, 

Ivir, F. L. PATRICK (Middlesex North) : I/Ir, 
Speaker, the Committee of ■7G3rs & Means begs to 
report progress and asks leave to sit again. 

Motion agreed to, 

Hon. LESLlj; M. FROST (Prime Minister): Ivir, 
Speaker, I raove the adjournment of the House, 



KK -4 
Tomorrow; we will proceed with Government Orders, 
with Bills, and that will leave us next week for the 
residue of the Bills here, and also the Budget debate, 
and the Bills that I mentioned this afternoon. 
There are one or two i-rivate Kembers' Bills, in connec- 
tion with Highway matters which vje will call, and it 
mii^ht be possible to work in some of the other Bills, 
too, during the week. 

Ivlr. McEVm^IG (V/ellington ITorth) : You will 
not call the Highway Bills tomorrow? 

Hon, L^b'j-I.. M. FROST (Prime Mir istor) :No, 

Motion agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 11,09 of the clock P,M, 



Mar. 30 



A-1 



And the t^use having met. 

Prayers. 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by Committees. 

Motions. 

HON. Dana porter (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, 
I beg to move, seconded by Mr, Frost: 

That the House have permission to withdraw 
the motion made on the 27th instant for the appointment 
of a Select Committee to inquire into the administration 
of justice in the province and substitute the following 
therefor. 

That a Select Committee of this House be 
appointed to study the administration of criminal 
justice in the province of Ontario, including the 
constitution, maintenance and organization of Provincial 
courts of criminal jurisdiction, the operation and 
administration of Provincial penal laws, the consti- 
tution, maintenance and organization of the various 
police forces in the province, and particularly the 
methods and procedure adopted for the detection, 
prosecution and prevention of breaches of the 
criminal law as to gambling, betting and similar 
offences, and to include in its report any recommenda- 
tions considered advisable. 

The Committee to have authority to sit during 
the interval between Sessions, and shall have full 
power and authority to call for persons, papers and 
things, and to examine witnesses under oath, and the 



A-2 

Assembly doth hereby command and compel the attendance 
before the said Select Committee of such persons, and 
the production of such papers and things as the said 
Select Committee may deem necessary for any of its 
proceedings or deliberations, for which purpose the 
Honourable The Speaker may issue his warrant or 
warrants. 

The said Committee to consist of seven 
Members and to be composed as follows: Messrs. 
Porter (Chairman), Janes, Villeneuve, Downer, Jolliffe, 
Grummett, Houck, 

In the event of a vacancy occurring in the 
membership of the Gomm.ittee, the vacancy shall be 
filled by the appointment of a member on the nomina- 
tion of the Leader of the party to which the committee 
member belonged. 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by Mr, Doucette, 
that a Select Committee be appointed to direct the 
expenditure of any sum certified in the Estimates 
:Cor Art Purposes, such Committee to be composed as 
follows: Messrs, Cathcart (Chairman), Chartrand, 
LeavHns, Martin, Morrow, Mackenzie and Pryde, 

The said Committee to be authorized to sit 
during the interval between Sessions, to give further 
consideration to the plan for the encouragement of 
amateur art in the Province as suggested by the 
preceding Committee, and to purchase such pictures 
of Ontario subjects by Ontario artists as the Committee 



i.t.r.30 



A-3 

may decide. 

Motion agreed to. 

MR. SPEAKER: Introduction of Bills. 

THE INSURiiNCE AMENDMENT ACT, I95I 
HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General): Mr. 
Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by Mr, Dunbar, that 
leave be given to introduce a bill entituled, "An 
Act to Amend the Insurance Act, I95I" and that the 
same be now read n first time. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 
MR. PORTER: Mr. Speaker, this Bill is intended 
to cover four main points. The first is with reference 
to reciprocal deposits provisions. Certain amendments 
are provided with respect to that jnatter. 

The provisions of The Insurance Act dealing 
with administration of deposits and reciprocal 
deposits, were found inadequate to meet any of the 
problems which recently arose when an insurance com- 
pany went into liquidation. The whole matter was 
studied by special committee set up by the provincial 
Superintendents of Insurance, which submitted proposed 
amendments to the Insurance Act of the various 
provinces. Accordingly, the provisions dealing with 
administration of deposits and reciprocal deposits 
are revised and can be found in Section 5 of this 
Bill. . 

In the second place, authority is given for 
a form of automobile underwriters policies which some 
of the companies wish to enter into, known as the 
comprehensive form of policy. 



A--4 

For a n\;imber of years the automobile under- 
writers have been preparing a new form of standard 
automobile policy which is known as "The Comprehensive 
Form", This wdrk is now completed and has been 
approved by the Association of Superintendents of 
Insurance of the provinces of Canada. 

Extended coverage is given a policyholder. 
It will cover not only his own automobile as described 
in the application, and also a newly acquired auto- 
mobile, a temporarily substituted automobile and 
any other private passenger type of automobile which 
is being driven by the insured or his or her spouse. 

The policy also extends the coverage by what 
is known as "The Comprehensive Item" which covers loss 
or damage to the insured automobile from any cause 
other than by collision. It also provides for compen- 
sation by way of medical payments for injuries sustained 
by the driver and passenger of an insured automobile. 

In the third place, I might say, this is giving 
authority for this type of policy which was not covered 
in the Act, as it now exists. Provision is made to 
cover a technical defect which appears in the present 
legislation. At present, under the Act, where a wife 
seeks to change the designation of her husband as 
beneficiary under an insurance policy where he has been 
living apart from her for some years, she is required 
to prove "that he is living apart from his wife in 
circumstances disentitling him to an order for resti- 
tution of conjugal rights." Apparently for a long time 
no serious case arose under it, but it has been found 



Mar. 30 



> 



A-5 

that in Ontario there is n' law whereby husbands can 
secure an order for restitution of conjugal rights, 
as such a provision was not imported from the law 
of England into our Statute law. The Section 1«| 
therefore, amended to remedy the situation. 

In the fourth place, provision is made to 
create a classification to be known as ^'Salesman" 
who will be '^•'•cvira-' to be licensed as such. Hereto- 
fore they have been exempt from licensing provisions. 
That refers to salesmen employed by 

insiirance agencies. 

(Take B follows.) 



B-1 

THE COMPANIES ACT 

HON. DANA PORTER: Mr. Speaker, I move, 
seconded by Mr. Dunbar, fhat leave be given to intro- 
duce a bill intituled "An Act to Amend the Companies 
Act", and that the same be now read a first time. 

Motion agreed to. 

First reading of the bill. 

MR. PORTER: T r reason I, rather than the 
Provincial Secretary, am introducing the bill, is that 
the amendments contained in this bill are complementary 
to those that I have mentioned in The Insurance Act 
with reference to the liquidation and winding up of 
insurance companies. The provisions dealing with the 
liquidation and winding up of insurance companies are 
at present set out in Sections 307-314 of the Companies 
Act. These provisions were found to be inadequate 
with respect to the liquidation and winding up of an 
insurance company, v/hich I mentioned in introducing 
the Insurance Act amendments; and as the result, 
the Superintendents of insurance have reported that 
certain provisions of the Companies Act be amended 
to bring it into line with the amendments introduced. 
The provisions are therefore revised in accordance 
with the commissions of the Committee. 

THE PHaKI'IACY AIViENDI-iENT ACT 

HON. M. PHILLIPS (Grey North): Mr. Speaker, 
I move, seconded by Hon. Mr. Foote, that leave be 
given to introduce a bill intituled, "An Act to Amend 
the Pharmacy Act", and that the same be now read a 



i 



B-2 



first time. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the 
bill. ^ 

MR. PHILLIPS: This amendment involves three 
things. First, at present the section forbids an 
unregistered person to compound prescriptions. 
To-day many prescriptions are not compounded but arc 
filled by handing out the article in a prepared fonn. 
The amendment is designed to prevent the filling of a 
prescription in any manner by an unqualified person. 

Second, the section dealing with cancellation 
and suspension of registrations is revised and 
authority is given to the council to cancel regis- 
trations on the grounds of mental incompetency, and 
a right of appeal to the Supreme Court of a decision 
of the council is given when registration has been 
cancelled. 

Third, this amendment will prevent the 
indiscriminate sale of drugs and medicines by 
pharmaceutical manufacturers to retailers who are 
not entitled to sell them to the public. The bill 
really involves the pharmaceutical group of druggists. 



HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, before the orders of the day, I should like 
to take this opportunity, on behalf, I am sure, of 
all th/^ members of the House and all associated with 
this House, to wish to our Clerk, Major Lewis, and 



Mar. 30 



B-3 

his wife, many happy retiorns of the day, because to- 
morrow is their fiftieth wedding anniversary. 

SCm HON. KELBERS: Hear, hear. 

Iffi. FROST: One would hardly think, Vie 
viewing the Clerk and his v/ife, that half a century 
has gone by since two people so youthful looking v/ere 
married, back in 1901. 

HON. MR. DALEY: She must have stood a lot'. 

MR. FROST: I have known Major Lewis a great 
many years, and I think he is one of those fortunate 
people whom the lapse of years seems to make younger 
instead of older. Major Lewis has been long connected 
with this House. I believe his first connection with 
it, as a member of the Press gallery, was back in the 
days of Sir Oliver Mowatt, back in the late 90' s. He 
says, "The early 90' s." Excuse ne; I was trying to 
let him dovm easily. It was in the early 90' s that, 
when Sir Oliver Mowatt was Prime Minister of this 
province, he was first connected with this House as 
a member of the Press gallery. Since that time a 
great deal of water has gone under the bridge. Vife 
have lived in very spectacular times, and Major Lewis 
has seen a great deal, first as a member of the Press 
Gallery, later as a member of the House to which he was 
elected for one of the Toronto seats about thirty years 
ago, and latterly as the Clerk of the Assembly. I am 
sure, Mr. Speaker, that we all want to extend to 
Major Lewis and his good wife our best wishes for 
health and happiness, i.nd we hope they will be spared 



i 



B-4 

to enjoy it together and bo with us for many more happy 
anniversaries, 

SOhE HON. rJU^'xBERS: Hear, hear. 

I'^K. E. B. JOLLIFFE (York South): Mr. Speaker, we 
would not wish this opportunity to pass without adding 
to what has been said with respect to Major Lewis and 
his wife. I think that aiy members of this House are 
indebted to Major Lewis for his great knowledge of our 
procedure, his wide experience in connection with 
this assembly, and his extraordinary patience. 

SOI>E HON. IiELBERS: Hear, hear. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I r^^ally do not know how he manages 
to sit end ' i.-- en to all of us; but he alvrays seems 
to be just as patient as he was when I first came 
into this House. 

I was interested to hear that he bst^an his work 
in this place as a member of the Press gallery in the 
days of Sir Oliver Mowatt . I could not help but look 
up there and wonder if some younger member of the 
gallery to-day may be Clerk of the House sixty or 
seventy years from now and look back on the days when 
such strange people occupied the Government benches, 
and such strange people sat on the Opposition benches. 

■r\ o c* o 

Whether that should come to or not, we do wish to 
extend to Major Lewis and his family our heartiest 
congratulations on his anniversary to-morrow. 

MR. F. R. OLIVER (Grey South): Mr. Speaker, on 
behalf of the group here, I v/ish to join with the 
other leaders in expressing to Major Lewis and his 
wife our most hearty congratulations on this very 



{ 



r.;ar.30 



B-5 

memorable occasion. Major Lewis has been to all of 

us down through the years, a source of help and great 

strength, in his knowledge of the procedure of the 

Legislature, and we do appreciate his many kindnesses 

and courtesies, and marvel, as someone has said, at 

the patience he has exhibited down through the years. 

When my friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. 

Jolllffe) was suggesting that someone some sixty 

years hence would look with astonishment at the figures 

that sat on the Government benches and on the benches 

in this particular corner, it occurred to me to wonder 

what he would think if he allowed his gaze to be 

centred on our friends to the right. V»'yl.T,we will 

allow the years to pass and take note of his prediction 
as to that time, 

liR. /. . A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): we wish, Mr, Speaker, 
just to make this unanimous. I am very glad to join 
with the others who have spoken in offering our congrat- 
ulations to Major and Mrs. Lewis on the eve of their 
fiftieth anniversary. It seems almost impossible to 
believe that such a young and fresh-looking man could 
have been married so long. But if the Major says it 

is true, it (lust be true. I was thinking during the 

while , , , , . ^, . ^ 
last moment or tw9 others have been speaking that 

perhaps it would be a very good idea if Major Lewis 

could be given a leave of absence from his job and 

permitted to spend a few years writing his reminiscences, 

covering these fifty years, and really telling the 

people of Ontario and the people of Canada what he 

has thought . 



Mar. 30 



B-6 

MR. JOLLIFFE: WouV he "tell all"? 

MR. MacLEOD: Ar-l tell all that has gone through 
his mind as he has sat in this House, both as a member 
and Clerk, these many years. I suggest that if Major 
Lewis would ,'yel disposed to do that, he would in all 
probability produce a best-seller that would top even 
the works of the great Lloyd C. Douglas, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I would be afraid to read it. 

HON. GEORGE H. CHALLIE3 (Minister without 
Portfolio): Before the Orders of the Day, I would 
like to draw the members' attention to a "brief brief". 
As Chairman of the Committee on Commissions, I commend 
to hon. members as most excellent week-end reading the 
report of the Hydro, The blue- covered copy is a 
progress report on the five-year program, and you will 
find it contains extensive information. It gives an 
outline of the five-year program laionched in 1946 and 
the results of the five years, the accumulation of the 
mileage up to December 31, 1950, the amount of 
money spent in the way of capital expenditure and 
grants for the five years, and also the accumulated 
expenditures and grants up to the end of the year 1950. 
There is a breakdown of the same information by each 
rural operating area. I would point out to hon. 
members that the information is obtainable, either by 
county or by constituency, due to the fact that rural 
operating offices or areas were established according 
to the transformer and transmission facilities of the 
Commission in that area, but any hon. member can 



B-7 

arrive at the mileage by deducting or adding the 
different parts of the rural operating areas serving 
each county. 

HON. LESLIE K. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, I should like to take the opportunity, by 
reason of the reference td the point which has been 
made by the hon. member who has just spoken, to say 
to the House that yesterday I ^eferred unwittingly, 
somewhat sharply ;:erhaps, to my friend from Bellwoods 
(Mr, MacLeod) and also . > my friend from Niagara 
Falls (Mr, Houck) . I did not intend my reference to 
be so understood, I i^rill say that I think I was 
justified in showing some impatience because of the 

course which was being taken, but I did not regard 

hon. mcnbers 
either of these » o as any more guilty than the 

rest of the Opposition combined, although there were 

certain references that singled them out for particular 

attention. I assure both of them of that. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: We all plead not guilty. 

MR. FROST: I did not mean it in that way, and 
if I seem to have singled them out, more than anyone 
else over there, I certainly apologize. I say that 
the sins of the combined Opposition are tremendous; 
their offences of commission and omission are enormous. 
I do not think anything I could say would stop them, 

"Uhe total weight and enormity of their sins in that 

,is enormou?/, ^ ^.^^ u ..v .o-x-u^ 
respecy. I would not want it to be thought that 

one or zv/o of their members, such as the hon. member 

for Bellwoods and the hon. member for Niagara Falls, 

should bear all the censure, because the responsibility 



Mar. 30 



is collective, and I would like it to be that way. 

I may say that we have been anxious to give 
the members of the House the fullest information. 
This morning my friend 'Unister of Lands and 
Forests (Hon. Mr, Scott) had a meeting of his committee, 
and that meeting was not distinguished by a very 
large attendance. There will be another meeting on 
Monday morning, and I hope my friends opposite will 
come doivn to that Committee and receive the benefits 
of the information which will be given out the;';, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of th- 
combined opposition, may I say that if the Leader of 
the Government (Mr. Frost) thinks that the enormity 
of our sins is growing day by day, v/e can only accept 
what he has said as being, to an Opposition, the 
highest possible compliment. 

(Take C follows.) 



March 30th, l9d; 



0-1 

MH. oPMKSE: Orders of the Day. 

Hon. LSSLIJ M. ?R03T (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I beg to table" ,,^ answers to questions 272 and 273, 
Order No. 33. 

. RURJxL TELSPIiOKTS SYSTEMS 

CL3RK Qj? TIC HOUSE: Thirty-third Order; sscond 
reading of Bill No. 146, "An Act respecting Rural Tele- 
phone Systems", Mr. Challies. 

Hon. G.H. CHALLIES (Minister without Portfolio)} 
Mr, Speaker, I move second reading of Bill Ho. 146. 

MR. FMqUHiu^ OLIVEI-1 (Grey South): Mr. Speaker, 
I thought the hon. Prime Iiinister (Mr. Frost) gave an 
undertaking not to call this Bill until Monday. The hon. 
member for \/elllngton North (Mr. Brown) said he could 
not be here today, but wanted to participate In the dis- 
cussion. 

MR. FROST: We were suggesting that it be sent 
on to Committee, and then I suggested we would hold it 
and allow any debate. I think it might be well to lot 
It go to Committee with the understandigg that the hon. 
member for V7ellington North (Mr. Brown) can discuss the 
Bill at that time. I have no desire to curtail any 
discussion on this Bill at alio Franlcly, I really did 
not notice that the hon. member (Mr. E own) was not In 
the House. If we pass it on to Committee, it may be 
discussed there, 

MR. WILLIAM DElNfNISON (St. David): Mr. Speaker, 
I would like to speak on this. I was waiting for the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Challies). I v>;ould like to say that I 



C-2 



think this is really a historic Bill in Ontario, and I am 
sure if those who followed through this House the first 
Bill establishing Hydro in tho province of Ontario, could 
look upon us today, when we are introducing the first Bill 
establishing a unified system of telephones in the province 
of Ontario, they would say we were making progress. 

In that connection, I thought the hon. members of the 
Legislature mi^jht be interested in knovdng that back in this 
Legislature, in 1914, on the occasion of the Hydro Bill being 
passed through the House, Sir Adam Beck, a member of the 
Legislature at that time, rose in his place and in discussing 
the Hydro Bill, drew attention to the fact that Ontario 
should also have a similar Bill with respect to telephones, 
and he stated at that time that it was absurd that Ontario's 
450 small telephone companies, were to be shut off in little, 
separate compartments, when they could be v^orking together 
with the co-operation of the government, and, with the co- 
operation of the Hydro, could be rendering much better ser- 
vice to the people of this province, and he said if all 
these systems were joined under central control, say of tho 
Hydro Electric, one staff could serve all purposes. Ho urged that 
all municipalities should appoint ■■, Public Utility Commissions, 
to control gas, electric, and water supplies. He proudly 
declared "Nothing is too big for us. Nothing is too extensive 
to imagina.Tho whole investment will bo returned to the 
government of Ontario in 15 years." 

I say, in looking back at that statement by Sir Adam 
Beck, how true it has turned out to be regarding Hydro, 
and I venture to predict it will be just as true in regards 



30th March 1951 



C-3 



to telephones, 

I believe tills Bill is very necessary, and I would 
like to suggest to the government as this Bill will not 
interfere with the Bell Telephone Company, which will just 
continue to serve the urban centres, 

that I think the {jovernment might 
take this under advisement, the making of some protest 
to the Bell Telephone Company regarding the increase of 
their rates. They wore granted only a 25^ increase. And 
yet they have increased some of the rates as much as 
100^0, I believe this building is served by trunk lines. 
I know the trunk lines at the City Hall wore increased 
from \>8, to kf^8» a piece — 

MR, SPEAKZR: I have no knowledge of the contents 
of the Bill, of course, but does the question of rates 
come into this matter? We are discussing the principle of 
the Bill, I rather question whether the matter of rates 
has anything to do vi/ith the Bill? 

¥ul, DEl\il\riSON: This was a connection I was dealing 
with, Mr, Speaker. I wonder if this Bill — which perhaps 
does cot go far enough — controls that, I had in mind 
that point because I thought it will concern this new tele- 
phone sot-up. If v^o set up this new provincial telephone 
system, v;e will have to get trunk linos from the Boll 
Telephone Company, and if the Boll Telephone Company has 
raised its ratos moro than it should, or more than they 
were permitted to raise them under the award, it will in- 
crease the cost to the consumers for whom we are providing 
service. I do not think that should happen, and I think 



30th March 



C-4 

it should be of some conoern to this House. 

Finally, I v;ould like to point out that in their 
last Report, the Bell Telephone reported there were 78,000 
unfilled applications for telephone service in the province. 
That is a great number of people who vmnt telephone service. 
I venture to say, if we added to that, the unfilled applica- 
tions which must be in the offices of existing rural tele- 
phone lines, we would probably have about 125,000 unfilled 
applications for telephone service in the province, therefore, 
I think this Bill is very, very necessary. 

Last year the use of local telephone facilities in- 
creased lO'/o, and the use of long distance facilities increased 
l^fo, and yet the increased number of telephones installed 
only amounted to lOfo, so, at the present time, we are not 
keeping up with the increased service required. I think 
this should be kept in mind, 

MR. CHALLIIiS: The hon. member (Mr. Dennison) should 
know that the matter of rates is under the control of the 
Federal Authorities. -U^^^: have the power to make a survey, 
and that is one problem we v^ill run into, due to the fact 
that there are about 300 companies which have 100 subscribers 
or less. It is our intention to make survey to find out 
what the problems are, not only concerning the larger com- 
panies, but going down through the small companies in the 
province, which are struggling along, and want some guidance. 
V/ith them, there may be some question about a proper financial 
system, but all these things will be surveyed, and we hope 
will be covered by a comprehensive report, and the next step, 
of course, vjill be to carry out the intent of the Act, 



March 30th 



C-5 



^ MR, FROST: In response to the remarks by the hon. 
member for St. David (Mr. Dennlson) it is true that nearly 
40 years ago Sir Adam Beck, mentioned, as part of the 
Hydro Development, the possibility of rural telephones, 
and the fact is, it was partly because of vjhat was said at 
that time that we were attracted to the Hydro as the agency 
which might be the answer to this problem. Experience and 
history have some curious angles. I have no doubt that Sir 
Adm Beck's venture into Hydro 30 or 35 years ago -- which 
proved an unsuccessful venture — probably headed off some 
of these others. If instead of turning to Hydro - dlr.r.ti 
in 1916 and 1917, which would ' ■-■ m impossibility, because 
of the coming of the automobile traffic, had turned to 
the telephones instead, it might have been quite a different 
story. But he turned at that time to V;hat appeared to be 
one of the obvious things, but it turned out, because of 
the advances of science, that he was engaged in something 
which was disappearing. Hydro radials have become virturslly 
a thing of the past. Indeed, in most cities, bus traffic 
is superceding the street cars, except in special cases, 
such as we have here in the city of Toronto, It is interesting 
to note that 40 years ago Sir Adam Beck had this feature in 
mind. I hope this Bill, which the hon. member for St. David 
(Mr. Dennison) has referred to as an "historic Bill", will 
be the commencement of giving our rural people telephone 
services, wtiich will be the best obtainable. 

I think the hon. members of the House will agree 
that at this stage it is a difficult matter, and one in 
which we want the good will and assistance of our people, 



March 30th 



C-6 

and I am sure with that, and with the plans v;hich will be 
prepared by o\ir experts, we will be able to lay a sure 
foundation for better telephone service in Ontario, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I notice, Mr. Speaker, the government 
is reverting to the grand and glorious custom of the past, 
namely a grand and eloquent preamble to q Bill. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No, 34. 

THE HIGffv/AY TRAFFIC ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Thirty-fourth Order; second 
reading of Bill No, 152, "An Act to amend The Highway Traffic 
Act", Mr. Doucett. 

Hon, G.H, DOUCETT (Minister of Highways): Mr, Speaker, 
I move second reading of Bill No, 152, 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 
Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I move that you do nov; leave the Chair and the House resolve 
itself into the Committee of the V/hole. 
Motion agreed to. 

HOUSE IN COIVMITTEE; Mr. PATRICK IN THE CHAIR. 
Hon. LESLIE K. FROST (Prime Minister): Notices of 
motions. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Ke^v.}^ut>?'-^ ''O. 7 by Mr. Porter': 
"Resolved, that; the fees and expenses 
of the Board, the Revising Officers and 
Clerks, the Clerks of municipalities, 
and the Clerks of the Peace in connection 
with the revision of the list for pro- 
vincial elections under. part 3, shall 



March 30tli 



J-7 



be payable by the Province, and 
such fees and expenses shall be paid 
out of the consolidated revenue fund 
to the person entitled thereto upon 
the certificate of the Chairman of 
the Board and the Auditor of Criminal 
Justice Accounts", 



Resolution agreed to. 



(TAKE "D" FOLLOV/S) 



D-1 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Fir. Porter, that, 

(a) the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may- 
authorize the issue of accountable warr,;-nts 
from time to time for payment of travelling and 
other expenses and for remuneration of officers 
and persons employed in the office of the Chief 
Election Officer; and 

(b) the fees and expenses to be allowed to the 
returning officers, boards, and other officers 
and persons for services performed under The 
Election Act shall, so far as the same are payable 
by the Province, be payable out of the Consoli- 
dated Revenue Fund and for the purposes of 
providing funds for the payment of such fees and 
expenses, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may 
direct that accountable warrants payable out of 
the Consolidated Revenue Fund be issued from time 
to time in favour of any officer or other person, 
as provided by Bill No. 110, The Election Act, 1951." 

Resolution agreed to. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Mr. Porter that, 
where moneys have bee paid out of The Legal Aid 
Fund to a solicitor for the purpose of enabling 
him to make necessary disbursements in connection 
■ with services performed by him. under The Ontario 
Legal Aid Plan and have been expended by him 
in the payment of Crown fees or charges and 
such moneys are not recoverable in any other 
manner, the Treasurer of Ontario may, on the 



March 30, 1951. 



D-2 

certificate of the treasurer and secretary of 
The Law Society of Upper Canada, remit such 
fees and charges to the Society, 
as provided by Bill No. 136, An Act to amend The Law 
Society Act. 
Resolution agreed to. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by I'r. Kennedy that, 
the Minister may grant aid to assist in the 
establishment of swimming pools by municipali- 
ties and school boards, 
as provided by Bill No. 13 5, An Act to amend The 
Community Centres Act. 
Resolution agreed to. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Mr. Porter that, 
where it appears by return to the Lieutenant- 
Governor or to any department of the Government 
that in any year a registrar of deeds or an 
officer holding the office of registrar of deeds 
and local master of titles has derived from the 
fees, emoluments and salary, if any, of his 
office, after deducting necessary disburserre nts, 

an income which is less than 4^3,200, there 

to 
may be paid on the report of the Inspector/ such 

registrar or officer, out of the Consolidated 

Revenue Fund, an amount sufficient to make up 

the income for the year to si53,200, if the 

Lieutenant-Governor in Council so directs. 

as provided by Bill No. 142, An Act to amend The 

Registry Act. 

Resolution agreed to. 



D-3 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Mr. Phillips 

that, the Minister of Health may pay grants 
to municipalities toward the fost of 
maintenance of isolation hospitals, 

as provided by Bi.M No, 144, An Act to amend the 

Public Health Act. 

Resolution agreed to, 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Mr. Challies 

that, the Lieutenant-Governor in Co' ncil may 

authorize the Treasurer of Ontario to pay 
to The Hydro-Electilc Power Commission 
of Ontario out of the Consolidated Revenue 
Fund such moneys as the Commission may 
require in the performance of its duties 
or in the exercise of its powers under The 
Rural Telephone Act, 1951. 

as provided by Bill No. I46, An Act respecting 

Rural Telephone Systems, 

Resolution agreed to, 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Mr. Frost 
(a) 
that, property passing on the death of 

the deceased shall be deemed to include 
any right which any person had at the 
time of death of the deceased under an 
agreement made by the deceased during his 
lifetime; and 
(b) the exemption from taxation under sub- 
section 1 of section 4 of The Succession 
Duty Act shall include any disposition 
where actual and bona fide enjoyment and 



March 30th, 1951. 



D-4 

and possession of the property in respect 
of which the disposition is made, was 
assumed more than five years before the 
date of death of the deceased by tjje person 
to whom the dispostion is made, or by a 
trustee for such person, and thenceforward, 
retained to the entire exclusion of the 
deceased or of any benefit to him whether 
voluntary or by contract or otherwise, 

as provided by Bill No, 14^, An Act to amend 

the Succession Duty Act, 

Resolution agreed to. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Mr. Frost, 
that, every purchaser of admission to a 
place of entertainment and to place of 
amusement shall pay to the Treasurer of 
Ontario for the use of His Majesty in right 
of Ontario a tax on the price of admission 

as provided by Bill No. 150, An Act to amend The 

Hospitals Tax Act, 

Resolution agreed to, 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Mr. Frost, 

that, (a) the Lieutenant-Governor in Council 
be authorized to raise from time to time by 
way of loan such sum or sums of money as may 
be deemed expedient for any or all of the 
following purposes: for the public service, 
for works carried on by commissioners on 
behalf of Ontario, for discharging any in- 
debtedness or obligation of Ontario or for 



March 30th, 1951. 



D-5 

reimbursing the Consolidated Revenue Fund 
for any moneys expended in discharging 
any indebtedness or obligation and for 
the carrying on of the public works 
authorized by the Legislature; .• :ovided 
that the principal amount of any 
securites issued and the amount of any 
temporary loans raised under the aut|iority 
of Bill No. 151, An Act for Raising Money on 
the Credit of the Consolidated Revenue 
Fund, including any securities issued 
for the retirement of the said securities 
or temporary loans, at any time outstand- 
ing, shall not exceed in the whole 
$100,000,000; and 

(b) the aforesaid si;im of money may be borrowed 
for any term or terms no 'exceeding forty 
years, at such rate as may be fixed by the 
Lieutenant-Governor in Council and shall 
be raised upon the credit of the Consol- 
idated Revenue Fund of Ontario, and shall 
be chargeable thereupon; and 

(c) the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may 
provide for a special sinking fund with 
respect to the issue herein authorized, 

Resolutl&Dn agreed to. 



March 30, 1951. 

HCN. LESLIE K. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 20. 
THE OLEOMRGARIME ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twentieth Order, House in 
Committee on Bill No. 114, "An Act to amend the Oleomargarine 
Act," Ilr. Kennedy. 

Section 1 agreed to. 

On Section 2. 

MR. J. L. EASTON ( i/entworth ) : I'ir. Chairman, I thought 
the words "other than skim milk" had been eliminated in 
committee. 

HCN. T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture): Ifr. 
Chairman, I would move that in Section 2(a) of subsection 2, 
that where it says, "Shall take or imply that oleomargarine 
has a*;.; relation to any dairy product other than skim milk", 
to cut out the words "other than skim milk". 

Amendment agreed to. 

m. F. R. OLIVER (Grey South): I^Ir. Chairman, may I 
ask the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) IS he quite sure in his 
own mind that the definition is wide enought to cover ad- 
vertising by radio? 

IJJR. KENNEDY: Yes, I am quite sure, in my own mind 
about that . 

Sections 2 to 4 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill No. 114 reported. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Chairman, 
I would like to go to Private Bills and take No. S, that is 
the Toronto Bill. 

CITY OF TORONTO 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Order No. S, House in Committee 
on Bill No. 27, "An Act respecting the City of Toronto" 



March 30, 1951. 



D-7 

Mr. Blackwell. 

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to. 

On section 3. 

MR. W. DENNISON (St. David): Mr. Chairman, I would 
like to move that section 3 be struck out. 

MR. L. E. BALCKI/ffiLL (Eglinton): Mr. Chairman, I 
would like to say a word about section 3 if I might. In the 
first place, I would say to the House that as a private 
member my name is on the Bill for the purpose of facilitating 
the usual consideration of s uch a Bill by the Legislature and 
its appropriate committee. It has been intimated to me on 

behalf of the gov'oi:.rrii3nt that it has objection to this section 

it •? 
in present form. It has also been suggested to me by the 

city that there is a legitim.ate case for consideration of some 
retiring allowance for Toronto Transportation Commission 
commissioners and under the circumstances rather than defeat 
this section in the Bill, as a matter of policy,. I would re- 
quest leave of the Legislature to withdraw the section, leaving 
i,t to the city to reconsider its position and bring forward 
in its private bill next year such other legijslation as 

1 

may be approrpiat^ to properly deal 

with such a question. I would, therefore, ask leave of the 

to 
House/withdraw that section and not to take a vote on it, 

which would represent any policy of this House. 

MR. E. B. JCLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 

Is that in order? Is there any such animal? 

Motion agreed to. 

On section3, formerly section 4: 

MR. DENNISON: }1r. Chairman, on section 3, formerly 



I^rch 30, 1951. 



section 4, I believe that this section should be either with- 
drawn and referred again to the city of Toronto for change 
or else amended here and I am not really prepared to propose 
any amendment. Now, I think the principle of a limitation 
on a pension granted to a department head in a municipal 
government which at the present time applies throughout the 
province, is good, because the prin- 

ciple of a limitation on a pension in these cases usually 

be 
rules out any favouritism that might^ set up in a municipality. 

'Je know, before that limitation was put on, there was favourit- 
ism in the granting of pensions at the municipal level. I do 
not need to mention certain case^ but I know in the city of 
Toronto there was favouritisiQ and it caused a lot of ill feel- 
ing between department heads and certainly the taxpayers were 
at a loss to understand it. The present situation in 
regard to Toronto, and this Bill just applies to Toronto, is 
that this section requests that this legislature 

states that the provincial limitation which applies to every 
other muricipality in the province should not apply tothe 
city of Toronto, and the city of Toronto shall, therfore, 
be entitled to grant the allowance to any department head to 
any officer of the corporation to any extent they 
v/ish, up to two thirds of the preceding three years salary. 

That could mean in the city of Toronto in one case a 
grant of a retiring allowance of |10pOO. Where other depart- 
ment heads have already been retired on |>2500. plus their 



$600. , The city of Toronto has a pension scheme for all 

Under this. . 4. .^.^^ 

employees, > pension scheme, an employee pays into it as 

his share of $600. per year and the city ps'.ys a like amount 



D-9 

and he gets a pension of §1200 unless he pays more and he can 
do that and increase his pension. A department head at the 
present gets the same thing except that the taxpayer makes up 
the difference between ;.i;600. and $2500., the taxpayer makes up 
$1900. Now, it used to be last year and before, . 

that the city of Toronto gave the $2500. from the taxpayer 
and then the employee had |600. v;hich he paid ir^ over and 

above thatj so the employee actually got |3100. They com- 

plain that the legislation we passed last year establishing the 
provincial maximum actually cut them down $600. , There is 

a case for this limit to be raised to sf;3100 in the city of 
Toronto. I do not think a case has been made out to raise this 
limit up indefinitely and I believe that the Toronto members 
would have no criticism if we were to vote for this in its 
present form, and I wonder if it is within the right of this 
Legislature or of the hon. j!i^iiT^S.T^]l:'-' ^¥x. Blackwell) to change 
this wording and state that the limitation of .'!j)2500. prescribed 
in this case shall not apply to Toronot but in the case of 
Toronto the limit shall be (-3500. or >;^4000. 031OO. will bfing 
Toronto back to where they were before. However, Mr. Chairman, 
I think the best plan is to let Toronto bring in legislation 
here in better form. I do agree with the hon. member for 
St. Andrew /.Mr. Salsberg) that they should at least have 
consulted th^?i8?i?^fe§mbers of this House, ns t^-.ey hnve 
done in previous years, and should have given us a little 
brief on the reasons for these things. , IJhey chose not 

to do that this year, I do not say that is the reason why 
it should be thrown out, but for the others reasons, I 
think this should be thrown out. 

I-iR. SALSBERG: Mr. Chairman, I want to joinwith the 



F^rch 30, 1951. 

hon. member who just spoke, (Mr. Dennison) and start from 
where he left off and state that the mayor of the city of 
Toronto -- and I single out the may^r because I think he is 
mainly responsible, has either been disinterested in getting 
the legislation that was applied foi/ the name of the city 
through this Session or he was playing local politics for 
reasons best known to himself. It is an unprecedented case. 

HON. G. H. DUNBAR (Minister of Fiunicipal Affairs): 
I^Ir. Chairman, really, we should have statements made in this 
House that can be substantiated some way. There is a legis- 
lative committee appointed in your council and all this legis- 
lation comes before that committee. Why stand up here and say 
to the hon. members of the House who are'^^nacquaintod with other 
municipalities the ^ayor is responsible. The mayor is 
not on that committee. He may be ex off icio, but he appoints 
a committee on the council to decide these things, and they 
decidod on this and you say the mayor is to blame. 

(TAKE "E" FOLLOWS) 



E-1 

MR. SALSBE.{G: Mr. Chairman, I still insist in what 
I said, because it is unprecedented. As I was beginning 
to say, when the Hon. Minister (IVIr. Dunbar) interrupted, 
it is strange that a city of Toronto bill should create 
so much confijrsion among the hon, Toronto members of this 
Legislature, as has been the case with this Bill. The 
Government supporters, who vjere undoubtedly anxious to 
put through the Bill, as was requested of them were, 
themselves, in the dark, and did not know exactly what 
was involved, nor to what extent they should fight for 
the principle presented in this bill. The mayor should 
have, as in the past, called a meeting with the hon, 
members of this Legislature and explained the contents 
of the bill, and the reasons why the hon. Toronto 
members should seek the adoption of such a Bill. This 
was not done and no attempt was made to explain to the 
hon. Toronto members the facts justifying Section 3, 
for instance, which was withdrawn a little while ago by 
the hon. member whose name is affixed to this Bill. I 
am sure he was not informed. Another hon. Toronto member, 
.in the absence of the Hon. member for Eglinton . 
(Mr. Blackvjell), a Government supporter, said that he 
intended to move for the v^ithdrawal of this section. 
Obviously he was not certain about it. Certainly this 
is not the way to handle public matters of legislative 
character such as is involved in this Bill, 

About the item which is still loft in the Bill, 
known as Section 4: This would mean the introduction of 
an entirely new method of pensions for Commissioners and 
and others in high-salaried brackets. I do not think any 
hon. member of this House from Toronto or elsewhere would 



March 30 
E-2 

deny Commissioners, an adequate and fair compensation, * 
But we do not know how far hhat will go. I do not think 
the citizens of Toronto have been advised of the 
implications of this section of the Bill any more than 
they were advised of the factors involved in the 
attempt^ to provide for a pension for members of the 
Toronto Transportation Gominission. I do not want it 
understood that I am opposed to a pension for members 
of the Toronto Transportation Commission — certainly not 
the way it was introduced. That applies to Section 4, 
which seeks to raise the pension to commissioners. I 
agree, therefore, that this section also should be with- 
drawn, and if the Hon, member for Eglinton (Mr. Blackwoll) 
in whose name the Bill stands, will not move its with- 
drawal, I would move it be deleted to give the city of 
Toronto an opportunity to explain it to the hon. Toronto 
members, at least, so they will be able to defend it 
competently and understand it thoroughly, which thorough 
understanding we do not have at the present time, 

MR. DEMISON: Should the Hon. Minister (Utr. Dunbar) 
not really tell us his position on this? I have the feeling 
in my hear the Hon. Minister (Mr. Dunbar) is not too happy 
about this kind of special legislation in the city of 
Toronto. I have known him for a long time. I know he has 
to deal with municipalities all over the province, but it 
would not be so bad if the city of Toronto could come to 
this House and say that "\/e are not paying our commissioners 
too good wages, and therefore, we have to give them a really 
good pension to keep them on the job." The city of Toronto 
in the case of department heads pays wages which are 
extremely good, and, in fact, they are a good deal better 



Marcii 30 
E-3 

than we pay our departments in the civil service, in 
proportion to the responsibilities they have and in 
proportion to the amount of work they do. I think that, 
therefore, we should stay with the principle which is 
now established and which has been established across 
the province, that there shall be a maximum, just to 
prevent favouritism, and just to prevent a council 
setting up a basis for disagreements and a situation 
within its pension grants which would cause a lot of 
hard feeling. 

IM. DUliBiiR: The city of Ottawa pays two-thirds 
of the salary the man receives prior to being super- 
annuated. The government of the province of Ontario 
pays two-thirds to the civil servants of his or her 
salary received prior to super-annuation. You want to 
treat Toronto differently entirely. I do not think 
this is at all unreasonable. So far as the hon. member 
for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) saying that they did not 
bring the hon. members from Toronto in. I do not know, i 
mLght have been overlooked in the past. I never v/as 
'called in to City Council, '.Vhen I vi/as elected to this 
House I tried to koop away from City Council. I tried 
to leave it to the people who had been elected, who were 
closer to the taxpayers instead of interfering with City 
Hall, I do not think it is the duty of City Council to 
bring members of Parliament in, or to bring politics, 
into their affairs at City Hall, at all, I think the 
people must have had confidence in them when the people 
elected them. Hero wo are with our own civil servants 
doing the same thing, and you are denying it to the people 
of the city of Toronto. 



March 30 
E-4 

IvIR. SALSBEiG: I do not think the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Dunbar) should misrepresent the position taken by 
those who question this bill. 

First of all, the Hon, Minister {Mr. Dunbar) of 
course, who is riding rough-shod over municipal 
governments, whenever he feels like it — 

IvE. DUlvIBAR: Just withdraw that. 

MR. oALSBEHG: The Hon, Minister (Mr, Dunbar) is 
a man who nullifies decisions of all city councils 
without a moment's hesitation, if, in the Hon, Minister's 
(Mr, Dunbar) opinion, such nullification is called for. 

IviR. DUIJBAR: Name one. Either put up or shut up. 

MR. SALSBiiG: The Hon. Minister (Fir, Dunbar) 
interferes in municipal government affairs, like no 
one else in this province. 

MR. DUirBAR: The hon, member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) has been filling Hansard with hot air for 
the last six weeks. Name one, 

MR. SALSBERG: I could name every municipal government 
in this province. In fact, the interference of the Hon. 
Minister (Mr, Dunbar) has reached such proportions that 
the Association of Mayors have been pleading to be 
relieved from the yoke the hon. Minister (Mr, Dunbar) has 
put around their necks, 

MR. DU1\IBAR: Oh, oh, 

IIR. SALSBEiiG: To gain a bit of freedom, which is now 
denied them by the Municipal Board which the Hon, Minister 
(Mr, Dunbar) appoints and over which the Hon, Minister 
(Ate. Dunbar) exercises no little influence. 

J/IR. DUJBAR: Do not forget the \7elfare Department. 



E-5 

m., SALSBEilG: Yes. The Hon. Minister (J/tr. Dunbar) 
is interfering with the Department of ./elf are, too. For 
the Hon. Minister {Mr, Dunbar) to speak about interfering 
in municipal government, is of course, to suggest 
something which should cause laughter and which will 
cause laughter in every City Hl;11 in the province of 
Ontario. The Hon. Minister (Mr. Dunbar) who now supports, 
or seems to support Section 4 of this Bill, is really 
not in favour of this Section. That is common knowledge 
to everyone who is acquainted with the Hon. Minister's 
(I\<Ir. Dunbar) vievjs on this and similar questions. 

MR. DUliBAR: Mr. Chairman, I want that withdrawn. 
That is a deliberate falsehood. There is not any hon. 
member in this House to whom I have expressed my opinion 
in regard to this section. I want that withdrawn now. 

Do you want mo to — 

MR. SALSBERG: I do not want the Hon. Minister 
(}Jlr, Dunbar) at all. The Hon. Minister (Mr. Dunbar) 
is ho least desirable of the hon. ministers. Nobody 
wants the Hon. Minister (Ivdr. Dunbar), neither here nor 
anywhere else. 

MR. DTOffiAR: Does the hon. member for St. Andrew 
(IVIr. Salsberg) want me to call him what I think he is? 

Md. oiLLSBEriG: V/ho has the floor? The Hon. Minister 
(Mr. Dunbar) should respect the Chair. 

I am suggesting that the Hon, Minister (Mr. Dunbar) 
is not in favour of that clause. He is the one who 
alvy^ays insists, and when he docs that — 

THE CHAIRiVLAi>i : The hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) has no rirht to impute. If the hon. 
member (Ivir. Salsberg) v;ants to speak, all well and good. 



March 30th, 1951. 



E-6 

MR. DUNBAR: V/ithdraw that. I demand a withdrawal. 

m.. SALSBERG: Of what? 

MR. DUNBAR: The hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) said I expressed my feeling against this 
to different hon. members of this House. 

MR. SALSBERG: I did not say the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Dunbar) expressed his feeling against this in this 
House; I said the hon. Ministe4 (iMr. Dunbar) is not in 
favour of this, and it is known to the hon. members who 
are acquainted with your feeling j** cut Gutters of this sort, 

MR, DUNBAR: I want you to withdraw that, because 
the hon. members do not know it. 

MR. SALSBERG: Now, Mr. Chairman, it is known — 

MR, DUNBAR: Is the hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) trying to make this a farce? 

MR, SALSBERG: The hon. Minister (Mr, Dunbar) 
has changed his views more than once on bills brought 
into this House, 

THE CHAIRI^IAN: I think the hon. member for St. 
Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) should withdraw that. 

MR. SALSBERG: V/ithdraw what, Mr. Chairman? 

r.HE CHAIRI^IAN: The imputation. 

MR. SALSBERG: If the Chairman cannot repeat it, 
how does he expect me to withdraw something he is not able 
to define? I did not say — v;hat? 

THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr. 

Salsberg) imputed that it was known the hon. Minister (Mr, 

Dunbar) was opposed to this, 

MR. IVIacLEOD: It seems to me that the Chairman 

is being very unfair. 



E-7 

MR. DUIffiAR: Was the hon. member for Bellv^oods 
(Ivir. MacLeod) over here trying to listen to pick up 
something? The hon. member for Bollwoods (Mr. MacLeod) 
comes over to this side with his ears sticking out, 
listening. 

liR. MacL^OD: The Hon. Minister (Mr. Dunbar) is 
making a perfect fool of himself before the people of 
Ontario, 

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: it is suggest- 
ed hero that the hon. member for St. Andrev; {¥iT, Salsberg) 

TK. CHAIRMAir.:' V/hat is the point of order of the 
hon. member for Bollwoods (Mr. MacLeod)? 

MR. MacLEOD: The Hon. Chairman is ruling that 
the hon. member for St. Andrew (I^. Salsberg) should 
withdraw something, yet you do not tell him what it is 
he is to withdrav;. What is it the hon. member for St, 
Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) has said that the Chairman wants 
him to withdraw, 

MR. FROST: I think it is plain. The Hon. Minister 
of Municipal Affairs (I>'lr. Dunbar) takes objection to the 
fact that it is stated by the hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) that the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs 
(Mr. Dunbar) has gone around to the hon. members of the 
House expressing an opinion. The Hon, Minister of 
Municipal Affairs (Mr. Dunbar) has said that is not so, 

I think the hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) 
might lot us get on with the business if he were to say that 
no such inference as that was intended and withdraw it, 

jVIR. JOLLIFFS: I hoard what the hon. member for St, 
Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) said. Perhaps the Hon. Minister of 
Municipal Affairs (J/Ir. Dunbar) did not hear what the hon. 



E-8 

member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) said, because they 
are not the same things, at all, 

IVER. DUlsBAH: Tell us what the hen. member for St. 
Andrew {Mr, Salsberg) said. 

MR. SiiLSBISRG: I want to say to the Hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) that I did not say the Hon. 
Minister (Mr. Dunbar) was going around tolling hon. 
members of this House his opinion, and therefore there 
is no need of withdrawing something I havo not said. 
All I said was that the hon, members who are acquainted 
with the Hon, Minister* s (Mr. Dunbar) feelings about 
such matters know th£.t he is not in favour of Section 4i 
IVIR. FROST: No, no* 

IvIR. CHAIRMAl^^ the Hon., Minister (Mr. Dunbar) did 
express here in the House quite forcefully his views in 
connection vath Section 3, I think it was, of the Act, 
with respect to the Section the hon, member for Sglinton 
(L'ir, Blackwcll) has withdrawn. There is no reference to 
this. 

May I Just interrupt the hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) to try and got this matter on the trolley 
a little bit? 

Here is what the Municipal Act in Chapter 243, 
Section 257, says: 

"A council may grant an annual retirement 
allowance payable weekly, monthly or other- 
wise, during his life to an employee who has 
been in the service of the corporation for at 
least twenty years, and who, while in the 
service, has become incapable through illness 
or old ago of efficiently discharging his duties," 

(Take F follows. ) 



March Z th 



F-1 



/ 



Hon. LSSLI2 M. FROST (Prime Minister): 

"And provided that the retirement allowance 
and amount of any pension payments payable 
to the employee in any year shall not 
exceed a/F; of his total salary for the 
preceding three years of his salary, 
or 025OO." 
All this Section does, as I see it, Mr. Chairman, 
is to take out the amount of those 025OO and say that an 
employee of 20 years service who has become incapable, 
through illness or old age, shall not get a retirement 
allowance of more than '/S of his salary of the last three 
years. There is not much in this to become excited about. 
After all, the city of Toronto is administered by a big 
corporation looking after about 700, 000 j I think we would 
be quite safe in taking off/ v2500 limitation. Remember 
that, with the other safeguard of 3/5, his salary over 
the last three years remains the basis. That seems to 
me to be reasonable. Perhaps the Minister of Municipal 
Affairs (Mr. Dunbar) might look over the situation in 
Ontario. It may be that perhaps in connection with the 
general statute some change might be made. But certainly, 
v^ith the city of Toronto, the size of the corporation, 
and the service that have to be paid, I do not think 
the request is unreasonable; and, the Council having made it, 
I suggest that we grant it. 

Remember that, by giving assistance to these people, 

assisting 
we are •. ■ • employees who have worked for the city for 

at least 20 years. The general Statute provides that 

this allowance shall be made to a servant who has been 



30th March 1951 



F-£ 

employed for at least 20 years and v/ho through Illness 
or old age has become incapacitated, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: That is not in this Bill. 
MR. FROST: No. But the Section, -that is the 
general Section - says, - and I paraphrase it - 
that an employee who has been employed for 20 years and 
Is incapacitated through illness or old age from discharging 

,"v ■. • J may be awarded a pension not to exceed 3/5 
of his salary in the last three years of his work, but not 
to exceed $2500. Now, this Section provides the limitation 
of ■^,>2500 prescribed in sub-section 1 of Section 257 of 
the Municipal Act, which authorize a Council to grant 
annual retirement allowances, shall not apply to the grantin- 
of such allowances to officers of the city of Toronto. 
It does seem to me that to take the $2500 out is fair. V/e 
have recognized that principle in the Civil Service of 
Ontario. Some years ago there was a limitation of §2000; 
later the amount was increased to §3000; subsequently we 
took it off entirely. It seems to me entirely reasonable 
that in a big city like Toronto this limitation of r)2500. 
does not apply, but the provision relating to 3/5 of the 
salary which is now in the Act, should remain. As I have 
said, I am so much impressed with the fairness of this 
proposal that I think the hon. Minister of ■•■..■•.■;r->*.pal 
Affairs (Mr, Dunbar) might look over that provision in 
relation to the rest of Ontario, Certainly it is a fair 
provision to be applied and I think we should let it go 
through. The city Council has asked for it, it has been 
through the Private Bills Committee, and I think there is 
much fairness in it. 



March 30th 



F-3 

MR. SALSBSRG: For the record, I want to make it 
perfectly clear that I am not opposed to the removal of 
the maximum of ^2500 which is now in force. 

MR. JOLLIF: -E: Then may I interrupt? 

MR. SALSBERG: Just a moment; but I think there is 
ground for asking, as some hon, other members and as some 
people outside this House have asked, should there 

be a limit? It is one thing to remove 025OO, 
but should there be a limit of, say, .^8,000, or "9)000? 
V/hat should there be as a limit to a pension? I am not 
at this moment even suggesting a limit. The matter has 
not been discussed sufficiently. I agree that the present 
limitation should be lifted, but novortholoss thoro \v".ll 
be a limitation that the pension will not bo highor than 
the salary rocoived by mcmbors of the government, — 
by the Premier — ? 

MR. FROST: Ohl 

MR. SALSBERG: I do not know. But certainly no 
amount is fixed. 

MR. FROST: I see my hon, friend's (Mr. Salsberg) 
point. 

MR. SALSBSRG: A Cabinet Minister geti.- ^^,^8,000 
a year. V/ould a pension be as much as that, or even more 
than that? 

MR. FROST: I think that we can leave that question 
with the elected representatives of the city of Toronto. 
They are a pretty wise lot, elected by the people. I do 
not want to throw away the people's money; and I believe 
it is fair to allow the grant to be computed on the basis 
of the 3/5 of the amount of the salary. There are not 



March 30th 

F-4 

bound to give the maximxim; they can give much less if 
they want to. That is the feeling. I think that is 
all we need to consider. 

MR. SAISBERG: There is a great deal about the pro- 
posal that I think is reasonable; but on . ,:,■*•. i-f informa- 
tion, has any other municipality obtained a concession of 
this kind -- Ottawa, for instance -- on a Private Bill? 

Hon. GE0RG3S H. DUIMB.-.R (Minister of Municipal Affairs) 
No, but the city of Ottawa has this 3/5 provision in their 
superannuation scheme. I refer to the Section which the 
hon. Premier (Mr, Frost) quoted. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): This is the 
first one of its kind. 

MR. SALSBERG: Then, if this is the first of its 
kind, Toronto is "in a special position". I wonder if the 
Minister consi''' ^red whether it is wise to have one law 
for Toronto and another fc. the other municipalities, with 
respect to a matter of this kind. Perhaps it is. Has 
that been considered? 

Hon. MR. DUNB/iR; Yes, I think that in several 
respects Toronto has to bo considered differently from 
other municipalities. It is a large municipality with 
a budget of some ^60 odd million dollars. It must have 
well qualified men and be 1" • ;). ritivn to cnccurag ■ those 
who have been in its employ for a number of years to 
remain, so that the administration will be more beneficial 
and helpful to the community. I think that v/hen a city 
grows to a population of 700,000 it has to be treated 
differently from a small town or small city or village. 
You have got to give it more special legislation; -sliere 



30th March 



F-5 



Is no doubt about that, 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Ottawa is a pretty big city too. 

Hon. MR. DUHBAR: V/ell, in area, with the annexation, 
it is now pretty big. You should come down and stay there. 
It is a lovely city. 

MR. FROST: I may say that proposals such as this 
in regard to the city of Toronto are really a prelude to 
general legislation. I think myself that the ••■2500 appeared 
to be all right in 1946, when it was started, but that it 
has become outdated. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: \Je all know that. 

MR, SALSBERG: I agreo with that, 

MR. FROST: vVhen,ou Private Bills, consideration 
is given to municipalities, the legislation becomes general. 
I have no doubt this is likely to be the case in connection 
with this Bill. 

Section agreed to. 

Section 5 agreed to. 

Bill reported. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 21. 

REGULATIONS OF LEASEHOLDS BILL 
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-first Order, House in 

Committee on Bill No. 133, "An Act to provide for the 

Regulations of Leaseholds", Mr. Porter. 

'Cv- JOLLIFFE: Mr. Chairman, I want to put a question 

to the Prime Minister in connection with this Bill. Is it 

Gssential that this Bill should go through this Committee 

stage today? 

MR. FROST: If my hon. friend (Mr. Jolliffe) would 



March 30th 



F-6 

prefer to let it stand over, it can stand, 

MR. JOLLIFFE; I had not in mind any particular 
discussion. There is one problem which I think, to save 
time, I would prefer to take up with the hon. Prime Minis- 
ter (Mr, Frost), 

MR, FROST: All right. 
Bill 122 etonds. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No, 
£3. 

THE REGISTRY ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-Third Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No, 142, "An Act to amend The Registry 
Act", Mr, Porter. 

Sections 1 to 4 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill No, 142 reported, 

Hon, LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No, 
24, 

THE ALCOHOLISM RESEARCH FOUNDATION ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-fourth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No, 143, "An Act to amend The Alcoholism 
Research Foundation Act", Mr, Phillips, 

Sectio: ■: 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill 148<' reported , 

Hon. LESLIE M, FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 2£^, 

THE PUBLIC HEALTH ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-fifth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 144, "An Act to amend The Public Health 



March 30tli 



T-7 

Act", Mr. Phillips. 

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill !•>■« reported. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 26. 

THE BEDS OF NAVIGABLE V/ATERS ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty -sixth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 145, "An Act to amend The Beds of 
Navigable V/aters Act", Mr. Scott. 

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill 145 reported. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 27. 

THE LAND TRANSFER TAX ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty- seventh Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 147, "An Act to amend The Land Frans- 
fer Tax Act"*j Mr. Frost. 

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill 147 reported. 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 28. 

THE SUCCESSION DUTY ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-eighth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 148, "An Act to amend The Succession 
Duty Act", Mr. Frost. 

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to. 

Bill 148 reported. 

(TAKE "F" FOLLOV/S) 



March 30th 



G-1 
.^ Hon. LESLI3 M* FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 29, 

THE PROVINCIAL LOAI^S ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty -ninth Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 149, "An Act to amend The Provincial 
Loans Act", Mr, Frost, 

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to. 

On Section 4 : 

MR. HiiRRY i^IXON (Brant): May I ask the hon. Pro- 
• vincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost), although it may have nothing 
to dovjith this particular Bill, when the Treasurer calls 
in a loan for redemption before it is due, what measures 
are taken by the Department to advise the holders of these 
debentures that the loan is being called, 

MR. FROST: Mr. Chairman, I think the debentures them- 
selves contain a provision for redeeming them before the due 
date. Usually it is done by advertising in certain papers 
in named municipalities in Ontario, and I suppose in the 
Ontario Gazette, The same procedure, as the hon. member 
(Mr. Nixon) Knows is follov/ed in connection with the re- 
demption of Dominion issues. 

Not long ago there vms one of the Federal issues 
called, and it was done by advertisement. I think what 
the hon. member (Mr. Nixon) probably has in mind is there 
are cases v/here people do not learn about these things -- 

liffi. NIXON: You are right, I know that very well, 

MR. FROST: You probably had one of those bonds 
tucked away somewhere, and when you went to cash •■.■..■• 
coupons, you found out it was no good. 



30th March 



G-2 

MR. NIZON: That is rigb.b. 

MR, FROST: I have run across that problem myself. 
It is a difficult problem, of course. The hon. members of 
this House know that there are in the Toronto papers every 
day legal notices. Personally I have no recollection of 
ever having read a legal notice, but they are there, and they 
are notices to the people^. 

I know we inform the banks and others vi/ho are "up" 
on these things, and they c u of coui'se, notify their custo- 
mers and their branches o The Trust Companies do the same. 
The result is that the matter I think is fairly well taken 
care of, 

I know there is difficulty there, and it is prett 
hard to overcome human nature* It is not necessary to 
tell my hon, friend (Mr, Nixon)., that, 

MR, NIXON: In connection with the Dominion calling 
their loans, it is advertised, even on the radio in the 
mornings, and I presume they had the callable feature in 
them, the same as you have in tha provincial issues. The 
Dominion paid §101 for them. In your own office, there was 
a card advertising the Dominion loan which was being called 
at OlOl. but ■- when your own debentures are called, I 
do not see any card in the office here, nor did I see one 
in the local office in Brantford, As far as the banks are 
concerned, they paid the coupons, and it was only after 
they sent the coupons to your office, that they found out 
the debenture had been called j so how could the holder of 
the bond know anything about it? 

MR, FROST: I think the hon, member (Mr, Nixon) has 
raised a good point, I will have that matter looked into. 



0-3 

and' try and see hereafter that when a debenture is called, 
tho"3e interested will receive proper notice, 

MR. SALSBSRG: Mr, Chairman, I would like to ask a 
question on sub-section 2 of Section 1 of the Bill, which 
seeks to make it easier for the government to borrow money 
in the United States. I v>;as vi/ondering why you should ease 
the possibility of borrowing money in the States — why it 
was necessary? 

Generally speaking, I would say we should try to 
reduce to the very minimum all borrowings in the United 
States, This country has a lot of money, and, whether I 
like it or not, there are a number of people who have made 
a lot of money, and who are anxious to invest in Canadian 
securities, and there seems to be no reason vi/hy we should 
go outside to borrov; money which this government may require, 
and then be obliged to send the interest across the border, 
1/hat was the main thought behind it? This Section obviously 
seeks to make it easier to borrow money in the United States, 
I would much prefer legislation which would make it more 
difficult to borrow American money, and limit the borrowings 
as far as possible to the Canadian nmrket, 

MR, FROST: The hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) raises an 
issue on that point. It must not be forgotten that wo have 
at the present time something on the order of ^250,000,000 
in Ontario and Hydro accounts payable in New York in American 
funds. The vjay that occurred is quite familiar to the hon, 
member for Brant (Mr, Nixon), and others hon. members who 
may have been in this House for some time. 

Prior to the First World V/ar there was no market in 
Canada in which to float provincial issues, and most of them 



March 30th. 



G^4 

were floated in England, Subsequently, in the days 

proximate to the beginning of the last V/orld V/ar — and 

even before and following that time — up to about the 

time of the depression, borrowings were made very largely 

in the United States, and that was the time when the 

three-way bonds came into being, that is, payable in Sterling, 

United States funds, or Canadian funds. \/ith the depression 

and the drop of exchange rates, and the exchange difficulties 

we have experienced in the last ^0 years, every effort has 

been made to domicile our loans — if I may put it that way — 
here. 

In the last seven or eight years we have borrowed no new 
money in New York, nor, indeed, outside of Canada, Our 

borrowings have been altogether in Canada, but nevertheless, 

,to 
we have had/ refund loans in New York, and I may say we 

are faced with Icifens to replace American loans, because it 

is not possible to repatriate the loans, because of 

the exchange and other difficulties, and we borrow on the 

American market, 

I would not want to do or say anything, by any 

means, which would affect the possibility or desirability 

of again borrowing on the American market. Conditions which 

have existed over the past £0 years may not exist again. 

At the present time, we are faced with borrowing, in the 

next 10 years, one billion dollars. That is one thousand 

million dollars, which is a lot of money. The money 

market is the same as the butter market or the steel market; 

when you get shortages, up goes the interest rates, and 

with the tremendous borrowings which have to be made in the 

expansion of tMs country, we may be faced with p'/^iituation 



rir:C): 



,:i;iiBLi.i t. 



March 30th 



G-5 

which will drive up the interest rates in this country to 
a very great extent, V/e have borrowed in the last few 
years at about 3?5, which Is slightly more than the Dominion 
rate, but less than any other provincial rate. V/e have been 
running about second in Canada, 

V/e have had variations in the last 3 or 4 years. 
My recollection is that about a year ago, in rather a scary 
market, we borrowed a considerable sum, I think it vr.^f. 
around C>40,000,00, or 050,000,000, and the interest amounted 
to about 3,185!^, Then my rocollection is it went down to 
about to s^S.OS^, The money market is rather cautious. 
At one time, the interest on the Hydro borrowings was about 
3,095^. In March, 1951, the picture is changed altogether, 
and the rates appear to be somewhere around 3,45^ up to 
about 3,5%, \Je have to face that situation. With the 
great demand for money in this country, it may be that 
interest rates will go up. I think that is inevitable, 
■^- '. I think it is a great thing to keep our position in 
New York clear, for this reason; while we may have to 
borrow at around 3 1/4 or 3 1-2%, depending on the term 
of the loan, we may be able to go to New York and borrow 
at about 2 !/■&%, Personally I prefer borrowing in our 
own country if possible, and have the money circulate in 
this country but the fact that we can go elsewhere, reflects 
itself on the rates of this country. \/e have thie very 
real position. The Hydro Electric Power Commission has 
contracts on the American side and there is an income on 
American exchange coming through Hydro, which enables them 
to negotiate loans in the United States, at very much more 
favorable rates, so I would caution you against exchange 



30th March 



G-6 



difficulties, because the income from American funds 
will come in from over there. 



(TAKE »H" FOLLOV/S) 



H-1 

Now, Mr. Chairman, that is about the situa- 
tion. The purpose of this Act, of course, is to 
clarify some things in our Act, regarding borrovi/ing, 

, In the United States, it is necessary to 
comply with the requirements of the Securities 
Exchange Commission there, and they are very tech- 
nical, an their requirements are most exacting » 

There were these features here in our Loan /^ct 
that seemed to be desirable to clear up. My recol- 
lection B that last summer we had a refunding loan 
in New York, and, of course, with owing ini250,000,000 
over there, we are bound to have loans from time to 
time. 1 certainly, Mr. Chairman, am not subtrac- 
ting from this, that it maj; with the great 
development on the Niagara and St. Lawrence Rivers, 
be desirable to avail ourselves of borrowing 
facilities on the other side because of the enormous 
amount of money required in this country for those 
needs, 

MU. SALSBERG: Mr. Chairman, I am very thankful 
to the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) for the very 
full explanation, and I agree there are occasions 
when, for refunding purposes, it may be more profitable 
and wiser to float a new loan, rather than have an old 
loan at a lower interest rate, thary attempt to" put it 
over" in Canadian funds. In those circiomstances certainly 
that is well and proper, but, really, this is a national 
problem that is arising before the people of Canada, 
and I suggest that a government such as this should 
set an example in halting the trend which I think is 



iV\- 



H-2 

very detrimental to the people of this country. The 
trend is for greater and greater American financial 
control of the life of this country. To-day there 
are almost six billion dollars of American funds 
invested in industry and in loans. This results in 
fabulous amounts of dividend payments that are payp.ble 
across the line every year, . affecting the economic 
well-being of the people of this country. 

Now, . . in conclusion, I do 

not want to get into a discussion on this so.bject ipon which 
perhaps the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) could cut 
rings around me, but some of the corporations on 
Wall Street have played an unfair game with us from 
time to time. In the city of Toronto we had an 
experience where a rather big loan v;gs made by them 
years ago, payable in Sterling , United States and 
Canadian dollars, /was utilized by them to collect 
sterling dividend %. when sterling was high, and when it 
became more profitable, they insisted we pay them in 
United States dollars and not in sterling. There was 
a dispute for many years, 

MR. FRDST: That is in the contract. 

MR. SaLSBERG: But you cannot change it back 
and forth in a day. That is what we argued in 
Toronto. If they choose sterling, we pay in sterling 

but they chose to get the most beneficial arrangement, 

„ r^ /WA^ faced . „ , 

and • the city of Toronto /witn a series of demands, 

V/hat I want to conclude with is this, that aside from 

the section before us, it would be good policy and an 

excellent example for the province , when it needs this 



Mar . 30 



H-3 

money, that it seeks to sell its bonds to 

the people of the province and small organizations in 
this province who would invest if an approach was 
made to then/ by the government to solicit their 
investments in small amounts, one hur Ired dollar and 
five hundred dollar bonds. There are many associations 
in this city who seek opportunities for investment, 
in addition to insurance companies and the province 
of Ontario, I am sure, would have no difficulty in 
determining what is a reasonable interest payment for 
a certain loan and keep that loan within the province 
for the people of this province and for organiza- 
tions who would invest in it as a gilt-edged proposition, 
rather than going to the United States money market, 
when they could deal with Canadian financiers, I think 
that would meet the financial requirements of the 
province, an® such bodies as Hydro, and would accrue 
to the benefit of the people and the organizations 
the people have built up in the province, 

MR. G. B. ELLIS (Essex North): Mr. Chairman, 
before we pass over this, on Section 2, the two words 
. in the first line read, "pass the hat". I would ask 
the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) is that govern- 
ment policy or a typographical error? 

MR. FROST: I am always glad to have anybody 
pass the hat for me. 

Section 5 agreed to. 

Bill No. 149 reported. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order No. 
30. 



H-4 



THE HOSPITALS TAX ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Thirtieth Order, House in 
Committee on Bill No. I50, "An Act to Amend the 
Hospitals Tax Act), Mr. Frost. 

Section 1 agreed to. 

On Section 2. 

MR. H. L. WALTERS (Bracondale) : Mr. Chairman, 
I asked the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) yesterday 
a question with respect to taxing places that have no 
cover charge. I did not get any answer. Besides 
that, I vjould like to point out to the Government for 
their consideration that this has been brought to my 
attention by a number of people who are interested in 
this thing, that for same time Canadian talent has 
been having a rather precarious time of it. However, 
lately, a number of night spots have been employing a 
lot of Canadian talent, and it has increased the oppor- 
tunity for Canadian talent. The fe.ling among them 
is, from what I gathered, if this tax goes into 
effect an indiscriminate tax on the lounges because 
of the entertainment that is in there, many of these 
entertainers are going to be out of work, VJhat is 
going to happen is, with this section, many of these 
places will put in canned music, background music, and 
drop professional performers from their staff. That 
has been brought to my attention by people who are quite 
interested in it, 

MR. FROST: I do not want to overlook the hon. 
member's (Mr. Walter^ question. I am sorry this bill 
^^2 called up when the hon. member for High Park 



Mar. 30 



H-5 

(Mr. Temple) is not in his seat, because he might 
support me on this matter, but I see the hon. member 
for "Kigh Park (Mr. Temple) has been at a meeting at 
Ottawa in which he says the government does not do 
anything but assist the liquor interests and what-not. 
Now, if he were here to-day, perhaps he v»ould take a 
different vi^w than that of the hon. member for 
Bracondale (Mr. V/alters) . I might even look for 
support from the hon. member for York V/est (Mr. 
Millard) in this matter, 

MR. C. H. MILLaRD (York Vifest): I am with you. 

MR. FROST: Good, I have one vote. Now, Mr. 
Chairman, the point gets down to this, we have in 
the province, a hospitals tax, ^ charge that tax — 
which was first of all twenty per cent , then reduced 
to fifteen per cent, and is now being reduced to 
twelve and one half per cent, — on 

amusements, such as a hockey match/ -^e have extended 
that to include football game^ t. - 

motion picture th«b^tres ^and the like, ' • I teve here 

which 
a great list of advertisements - appear in the 

papers here, I would like to give them to the hon. 

member for Bracondale (Mr, Walters). It is very 

difficult to see why a person going to the Imperial 

Theatre or Loew's Theatre should pay a tax of twe" /re 

and one half per cent and yet someone else putting 

on a floor show in these places should be exempt from 

tax. It does not seem to be fair. 

I will 

not go over the various advertisements, but certainly 



H-6 

the information is given that you go to these places 
and see a show. I do not see any reason why they 
should not pay a tax. We have to include this 
tax on the food and drinks there, but we do it on this 
basis, we make the limit of the tax one dollar. In 
other words, if four persons went and 

it cost ther :,hirty-two dollars for their entertainment 
and food and drinks, if four people spent thirty- 
two dollars, the tax in that case would be a maximum 
of four dollars. If they spend anything over that 
amount, the tax would not be payable. Now, under that 

amount it would be greater, there is not any other way 

,you 
you can work it out. If for instance/ estab- 

lish a cover charge of one or two dollars in these 
places, it is not really a fair arrangement. \'Je feel 
this is the f..lrest arrangement, and we are not 
changing the basis of this tax at all. All we are 
doing is to redefine "entertainment ," 

Now, I see some of these advertisements here, 
I see, for instance, here is one place, "Ivory Joe 
and his Seven Men of Jazz:". I do not want to get 
impaled on any of these discrimination acts we are 
passing here. But if Joe just plays music, there is 
no tax payable, but if Ivory Joe tJcgs, there is tax 
payable. We have to dr^w the line somewhere. That 
is also true of the '.'viiversity Fpur, whoever they may 
be, if the University ©our play musical instruments 

or play the piano, then there is no tax, but once 

and 
they get into the realm of' wise cracks"/ jokes, then 

they have to pay the tax. That is where it comes in. 



H-7 



This Act provides that for background music only, they 
can have an orchestra as large as they like and no 
tax, but if they sing, there is a tax. 

I know the hon. member (Mr, Walters) might 
say that is unfair, but you have to draw a line 
somewhere, and I think it is a fair, reasonable line 
to draw, and our experience in this line really came 
from some of those people themselves. Remember, in 
this business there is a great deal of competition. 
One man runs a very fine place where you can get 
meals and service and music. The next fellow down 
the street gets in someone who performs, some floor 
show or something of the sort, and it makes it more 
difficult for the other good man to compete. 
That situation was met in the United States and the 
federal provision for tax of this sort is on the 
basis of background music. I think, Mr, Chairman, 
that is a fair thing. I do not think it is in any 
way oppressive, I think it is a fair provision for 
peoffe competing in amusement places that are definitely 
liable for tax, such as motion pictures and others. 
After all, they are entertainment places and they 
pay the tax. It seems to me that the eating places 
cross the line and enterteiriment places certainly do, 
and then they will pay the tax if they go past a 
certain limit, 

MR. WALTERS: I might point out to the Hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) that when he accepts musical 
instruments and says only pay a tax on the human voice, 



H-8 
the human voice is, after all, the most beautiful 
of musical instruments. 

MR. FROST: I agree with that. 
MR."'JOLLIFFE: Sometimes. 
Section 1 agreed to. 
On Section 2. 

MR. DENNISON: Mr. Chairman, on Section 2, 
I would like to suggest to the Hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost) that he considers raising this taxable 
amount. At the present time this tax reaches right 
down to the fifteen-cent admissions, and through the 
fifteen- cent admissions, to the twenty-cent admissions, 
it takes two cents off the people who are admitted. 
Now, it seems to me that in view of the fact that 
this is not really a hospital tax, it goes into the 
federal revenue, in view of the fact that the Hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) recognizes that it is not 
just a tax, he could somewhat change this amuse- 
ment tax which falls most heavily on the younger 
people, on the persons who are least able to pay. It 
falls least heavily upon the older person, the person 
who has made a substantial amount of money, who can 
sit back and who is not so interested in entertainment, 
a person who can entertain himself, so to speak. I 
think it would be a very fair request to raise this 
and start the tax at the forty- cent level and have 
the tax withdrawn entirely on amusement under forty 
cents. I am sure the young people, boys and girls, 
and those who have to watch their pennies in choosing 
an entertainment and who are forced to 'choose in the 



H-9 

lower-priced branches of entertainment, 

would appreciate it if the Hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost) would strike out everything under forty- 
cents. You may have to make it thirty-eight cents, 
or thirty-seven cents, there may be a point there where 
you can force a reduction in the price of the show, 
but I would say on general principle I would oppose 
anything under forty cents. I am sure the Hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) has given some thought to 
that. What about being a little generous to-day and 
striking off the other half of this section? 

Section 2 agreed to. 

Bill No. 150 reported. 

(Take I follows.) 



March 30th, ;951, 



I-l 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order 
No. 31. 

RAISING OF MONEY ON THE CREDIT OF THE 
CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE; 31st Order; House in 
Committee on Bill No. 151, "An Act to authorize the 
Raising of Money on the Credit of the Consolidated 
Revenue Fund." Mr. Frost. 

On Section 1, 

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Chairman, 
just to follow up a point I have raised with respect to 
previous bills, what facilities exist to-day for notifying 
such organizations as Fcaternal societies, credit unions, 
co-ops, and so on, of the availability of Provincial 
Governmeent bonds for their investment — or are there 
no such facilities at all? The point I am trying to 
make, again, is that we should go out of our way to offer 
to such popular peoples* organizations the opportunity 
of investing their money in Government bonds such as 
those offered by this province before we hand the bonds 
over to a group of investment brokers and promoters on 
Bay Street, St, James Street, or VJall Street, 

My question is, what facilities, if any, exist 
to-day in the Treasury of this Province to notify 
organizations of the character I mentioned, as well as 
individuals, of the availability of bonds they could pur- 
chase very safely, 

Hon. LESLIE M. FROST( Prime Minister ) : Mr. 
Chairman, our business of course, in borrowing is done 



1-2 

through our various banks, agents and agencies. We 
have not, of course, any sales organizations of our own. 
That has never been the case. The only time 1 recollect 
any effort of selling directly ourselves, was one time 
a proposal was made many years ago of selling bonds 
through the Provincial Savings Offices. 

IIR. JOLLIFFE: 1935. 

MR. FROST: Yes, around 1935, through the 
"Provincial Savings Offices." 

ilR. JOLLIFFE: I think it was May or June, 1935. 

MR. FROST: I am not sure of the date; but that 
v;as never put into effect, . The then government, 
made certain arrangements which are very largely per- 
petuated by this Government, , setting up an 
organization through the various banks, through the 
various bond houses and others having their own sales 
organizations. They have their own clients. For 
instance, they will have on a list of clients, various 
co-operatives and what not. V/hen an issue comes up, 
of course, they contact their people and they endeavour 
to place these bonds far and wide among their own clients, 
I think that is the best arrangement. 

V/e have no sales organization of our own, and 
it is certainly very difficult, of course, to maintain 
a provincial sales organization. 

The Federal Government does not maintain a 
sales organization, although they have a closer relation- 
ship with the banks than we have because bf their powers 
over banking and that sort of thing. 

I think our bonds are very widely distributed. 



1-3 

There is every indication that our bonds are very 
widely held by, a lot of small ^'^^^^^"^^'y.^e had an 
example to-day of at least one holder of bonds who 
had not been informed that the issue had been redeemed, 
which gives some i..>ngible proof of the fact that the 
bonds are quite widely held. 

MR. SaLSBERG: That bondholder was close enough 
to the Government to know that bonds were available • 
at that time, 1 am sure. He is not an outsider, I 
presume, 

I want to suggest to the Hon. Provincial 
Treasurer (Mr. Frost) that we should establish an 
organization to reach out to the bodies which I 
mentioned. I do not see anything wrong during' a ^ . 
campaign whenever we have to float a big loan to reach 
societies, unions, co-ops, individuals, and even small 
municipal governments which may have funds in their 
sinking fund which they would gladly invest in 
Government bonds, 

I do not know whether this is the time to find 
out v^hat happened in 1935, but, if my memory serves 
me, there was a battlo on at the time between the 
then government, the big banks, the bondholders, and 
the Prime Minister was threatening them that he would 
raise funds without them, going directly to the people. 
I do not know why he did not follow it through. Cer- 
tainly, we should make it possible for citizens of this 
province and for organizations of people in this province 
to share in the purchase of bonds. It very often happens 
that the big bondholders will put an advertisement in the 



1-4 

paper announcing a big loan, and then say that, "This 
is just put in frr the record, but all the bonds are 
taken up." They are usually taken up by big invest- 
ment companies, large insurance companies, and so on, 
but the people dovm below do not get the opportunity 
to buy those bonds. 

I suggest the Hon. Treasurer (Mr. Frost) give 
this matter some thought. I am sure it is worth 
considering. I am also certain such an innovation 
would meet with universal approval of the people of 
this province. 

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive, agreed to. 

Bill No. 151 reported. 

HON. LESLIE M, FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Chairman, I move that the Committee rise and report 
certain bills, with and without amendments. 

Motion agreed to. 

The House resumes, Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 

MR. T. L. PATRICK (Fiddlesex North): Mr. 
Speaker,. the Committee of Supply begs to report ten 
bills without amendments, one bill with amendments, 
moves the adoption of the report and begs leave to 
sit again. 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, before we adjourn, might we revert to third 
readings, starting with the Second Order? //e might 
as well clean those up. 

THE ESCHEATS ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Second Order; Third reading. 



1-5 

Bill No. 135, An Act to Amend the Escheats Act. Mr. 
Porter. 

HON. DANA PORTEx^ (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, 
I move third reading of Bill No. 135- 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the bill. 

HR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the bill do now pass 
and be intituled as in the motion. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister) : Order 

No. 3. 

THE LA7/ SOCIETY kCT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Third Order, third reading, 
Bill No. 136, An Act to Amend the Law Society Act. Mr. 
Porter. 

HON. DANA PORTExi (At "-.or-'ey-General) : Mr. 
Speaker, I move, third reading of Bill N0.I36. 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 
pass and be intituled as in the motion. 

HON. LESLIE L. FROST (Prime Minister): Order 

No. 4. 

THE MINING ACT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fourth Order, third reading. 
Bill No. 137, An Act to Amend the Mining Act; Mr. 
Gemmell. 

HON. DANA PORTER (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
in the absence of Mr. Gemmell, I move third reading 
of Bill No. 137. 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 
pass and be intituled as in the motion. 



1-6 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order 

No. 5. 

THE COIil UNITY CENTRES aCT 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fifth Order, Third Reading, 
Bill No. 138, An Act to Amend the C ranunity Centres 
Act. Mr. Kennedy. 

HON. DANa rOR'^F'-^ (Attorney-General): Mr. 
Speaker, in the absence of Mr. Kennedy, I move third 
reading of Bill No. I3S. 

Motion agreed to; Third reading of the bill. 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the bill do now 
pass and be intituled as in the motion. 

HON. LESLIE i . FROST (Prime Minister): ^rder 
No. 6. 

REGISTR..TION OF NURSES 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixth order; third 
reading, Bill No, 139, An Act respecting the regis- 
tration of nurses. Iir. Phillips. 

HON. G. H. DOUCETT (Minister of Highways): Mr. 
Speaker, in the absence of Mr. Phillips, I move 
third reading of Bill No. 139. 

I*iotion agreed to; third reading of the bill, 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the bill do now 
pass and be intituled as in the motion. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order 

No. 7. 

NURSING 
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Seventh Order; third reading, 
Bill No. 140, -^n Act respecting Nursing. Mr. Phillips. 
HON. G. H. DOUCETT (Minister of Highways): Mr. 



Mar.^u 



1-7 

Speaker, in the absence of Mr. Phillips, I move third 
reading of Bill No, I40. 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the bill. 

LR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the bill do now pass 
and be intituled as in the motion. 

HON. LESLIE f.. FHDST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, in moving the adjournment of the House until 
Monday, we have a very few orders left on the Order 
Paper. On Monday, I am not just wure in what order 
we will proceed, but it is quite obvious that the 
business will be as follows. There is the second 
reading of Order No. 9, standing in the name of the 
hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Gordon) which might be 
considered; Order No. 21 with respect to regulations 
of leaseholds; Order No. 22 with respect to Niagara 
Psrks Act, and Order No. 32 with respect to the Farm 
Products Marketing Act. Those are on the order paper 
at the moment. 

There are the Bills introduced today, which I 
think are largely routine and which I am hopeful will 
be in shape on I'^onday to be considered on second 
reading. Then we have The Election Act which I think 
will be reported, making two Acts to be reported on 
Monday. It may be too early to consider the second 
readings on Monday, but in any event the reports will 
be here, as I understand it. 

We. also have a large item, the Budget Debate, 
and I would like those who are participating in that 
debate to be ready to go ahead on Monday. I would 
like to take the Estimates of the Department of Lands 



I-S 

and Forests on Monday night. 

Mr, Speaker, I move the adjournment of the 
House. 

Motion agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 4.2? of the clock, 
p.m. 



>f